If Mussina wins 20, is he a shoe-in for the Hall?

[DrungoHazewood]

If Mussina gets in the HOF it will strictly have to be on longevity and 300 wins. Nothing else he has done is HOF worthy. While he has been a very good pitcher for a long, long, time what has he done that would be considered great? No 20 game winning seasons, no Cy Youngs, no- no hitters, very few All-star appearances, etc. He just doesn't fit the bill of a HOF player in my estimation, but then again, I didn't think Don Sutton should have gotten in either. I think Curt Shilling and even David Wells who both have no-hitters or perfect games, and great post season records deserve to get in way more than Mussina, as does Dennis Martinez.

He's better than about 1/3 of the pitchers in the Hall. Did they not deserve enshrinement?

[sakata_catching]

He's better than about 1/3 of the pitchers in the Hall. Did they not deserve enshrinement?

Drungo, just curious — who's Mussina's closest comp who's in the Hall?

[byrdz]

Drungo, just curious — who's Mussina's closest comp who's in the Hall?

Sorry, you didn't ask me but Juan Marichal is his no.1 comp on Baseballreference.com and on Baseball Prospectus Jim Bunning is his no.1 comp, both HOFers.

[Eight]

I think more importantly for his Hall chances, even if he doesn't win 20, he's pitching extremely well this season (irrespective of W/L). He'll be up around 270 wins, and he has been very healthy for the most part, only missing a few starts in the years he's had an injury. He's "only" 39 so his chances of getting to 300, if he wants to pursue it, have to be around 1 in 2, 1 in 3 at the worst.

It will be interesting to see what the Yankees do with him. He had a terrible ERA last season, and there was a lot of talk that he wouldn't be brought back after 2008, but now with him back to his old form and Sidney Ponson getting starts for them, can they afford not to bring him back?

[hoosiers]

People talk too much of 300 as a magic number. At the current rate, there are not more than a handful who will get to the 225-250 mark. Moose's win mark will stand the test of time.

A career ERA+ of 122 is easily Hall-worthy.

[Nigel Tufnel]

In the 2008 Gold Mine, Bill James rated Mussina's eventual chances of getting into the HOF as 80%.

That's higher than I would have said, but he pointed out that in the history of baseball, there are 23 pitchers with 220 wins and records at least 100 games above .500. 5 of those pitchers were active when James wrote that - Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, and Mussina. The other 18 are in the Hall of Fame.

[Old#5fan]

He's better than about 1/3 of the pitchers in the Hall. Did they not deserve enshrinement?

Better based on what criteria? (I am certain you just knew I would ask that).

I am not stating he has no chance but I just don't think it all that likely unless he does something exceptional in addition to winning 300 games. I mean cmon, even Mike Flannagan had a Cy Young, and Dave McNally won twenty games or more a lot of times and neither sniffed the HOF. Also, if I had a choice of David Wells, Curt Shilling, or even Dennis Martinez at the top of their game to pitch a WS game for me or Mike Mussina, I would take any of the first three hands down, not even close. Yet only one of them (Shilling) probably ever has a chance of making the HOF. I just don't see why Mussina is all that exceptional. He was very good and almost great, over a long period of time. To me, that is not HOF worthy in and of itself. Furthermore, the reality is he is not a very personable guy and that could also negatively influence voters (not supporting that it should - just stating the reality of it.)

[Sports Guy]

He should already be a shoe-in if he retired tonight.

[scOtt]

Better based on what criteria? (I am certain you just knew I would ask that).

I am not stating he has no chance but I just don't think it all that likely unless he does something exceptional in addition to winning 300 games. I mean cmon, even Mike Flannagan had a Cy Young, and Dave McNally won twenty games or more a lot of times and neither sniffed the HOF. Also, if I had a choice of David Wells, Curt Shilling, or even Dennis Martinez at the top of their game to pitch a WS game for me or Mike Mussina, I would take any of the first three hands down, not even close. Yet only one of them (Shilling) probably ever has a chance of making the HOF. I just don't see why Mussina is all that exceptional. He was very good and almost great, over a long period of time. To me, that is not HOF worthy in and of itself. Furthermore, the reality is he is not a very personable guy and that could also negatively influence voters (not supporting that it should - just stating the reality of it.)

You forget how incredible Moose was for US in the playoffs! Unhittable.

[Old#5fan]

You forget how incredible Moose was for US in the playoffs! Unhittable.

No, I don't forget but perhaps you weren't around when there were Oriole pitchers who outpitched Mussina and actually won WS games for the Orioles. Guys like Bunker, Palmer, McNally, Cuellar, Boddicker, and McGregor. Again, Mussina was excellent in the playoffs but how many playoff wins and WS wins does he have? Its not like he hasn't had opportunities, but he really has nothing to compare to a big, clutch playoff clinching or WS clinching win. To me this is just another illustration of a very good, and almost great pitcher just not quite being able to get over the top to greatness. That description is spot on when it comes to Mike Mussina. He belongs in the class with Blyleven, Dennis Martinez, and Vida Blue. Not quite good enough to make the Hall, although I think they do deserve consideration, it just isn't going to happen.

[Old#5fan]

My goodness you make some poor arguments.

That is your opinion which is as valid as mine (no more or no less) when it comes to Mussina and HOF entry.

[DrungoHazewood]

That is your opinion which is as valid as mine (no more or no less) when it comes to Mussina and HOF entry.

Only in bizarro world are all opinions created equal. This isn't a debate about whether blue or green is a better color. This is whether or not a pitcher was great, as defined by the current standards of the Hall of Fame.

[DrungoHazewood]

No, I don't forget but perhaps you weren't around when there were Oriole pitchers who outpitched Mussina and actually won WS games for the Orioles. Guys like Bunker, Palmer, McNally, Cuellar, Boddicker, and McGregor. Again, Mussina was excellent in the playoffs but how many playoff wins and WS wins does he have? Its not like he hasn't had opportunities, but he really has nothing to compare to a big, clutch playoff clinching or WS clinching win. To me this is just another illustration of a very good, and almost great pitcher just not quite being able to get over the top to greatness. That description is spot on when it comes to Mike Mussina. He belongs in the class with Blyleven, Dennis Martinez, and Vida Blue. Not quite good enough to make the Hall, although I think they do deserve consideration, it just isn't going to happen.

I think you may actually be a Hall of Fame voter. That would help explain some of their nonsensical decisions.

[Old#5fan]

I think you may actually be a Hall of Fame voter. That would help explain some of their nonsensical decisions.

Put it this way, if Mussina makes the HOF and Blyleven, Blue and Martinez don't I think they ought to file a complaint. If folks like you were voting you would weaken the HOF to the point it would become too easy to get in. If Mussina was winning or won Cy Youngs, lead the league in ERA, strikeouts, innings pitched, complete games, innngs, etc. as well as winning 20 at least once or twice and tossed a no-hitter there would be no argument. The mere fact he hasn't done hardly any of those things means there is an argument and there shouldn't need to be one if a player is truly HOF class. Just think about that awhile please, and I believe you will realize it makes sense.

[ElToro75]

He came within 1 out of a no hitter. If he had gotten that out' date=' does that make him a HOF for you? He came within 1 win of winning 20 games. Does that 1 game he didn't win outweigh his entire [/b']career?

If Mussina gets in the HOF it will strictly have to be on longevity and 300 wins. Nothing else he has done is HOF worthy. While he has been a very good pitcher for a long, long, time what has he done that would be considered great? No 20 game winning seasons, no Cy Youngs, no- no hitters, very few All-star appearances, etc. He just doesn't fit the bill of a HOF player in my estimation, but then again, I didn't think Don Sutton should have gotten in either. I think Curt Shilling and even David Wells who both have no-hitters or perfect games, and great post season records deserve to get in way more than Mussina, as does Dennis Martinez.

There are plenty of pitchers who have no-hitters that aren't in the Hall. There are also many other pitchers with one 20 win season that aren't in either.

Multiple no-hitters or multiple 20 win seasons gets you points with the writers, not one.

300 wins is arguably more difficult to attain now with 5 man rotations versus 4 man rotations of the past.

Longevity coupled with dominance and/or consistency gets you points with the voters as well. Doesn't Mussina have something like 17 consecutive 10+ win seasons, an AL record? Should he play a few more years he could very well extend that streak.