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If Mussina wins 20, is he a shoe-in for the Hall?


Frobby

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I never said whatsover that Helling was a better pitcher than Mussina. EVen where you quoted me I explained that so where you are getting that from I haven't the foggiest. What I did state that if even a mediocre pitcher like Helling could have a 20 win season it doesn't bode well for Mussina and his HOF chances when it is pointed out he has never done what virtually every starting pitcher now in the HOF has done and usually numerous times!!!:eek:

I meant to say (one of those times where you mean to say something but don't, will edit after this post) that if a pitcher like Helling has one season better than any of Mussina's that it would discredit his HOF chances, then there it no point...

If you truly feel that a pitcher like Helling is better than Mussina then there is no point even debating b/c I don't think anyone can follow the logic of that actually being true.

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Mike Mussina won his league-leading 13th game of the year today, tossing 8 innings of shutout ball. The Yankees have 61 games remaining, meaning that Mussina should have at least 12 more starts,and would need to win 7 of them to win 20. In other words, if maintains the same pace he has set in his first 21 starts, he'll be a 20-game winner for the first time.

There have been dozens of threads over the years regarding whether Moose is or isn't Hall-worthy. Those who oppose him usually cite three strikes against him: (1) no Series rings, (2) no Cy Youngs, (3) never won 20 games. If he knocks off that third requirement, is he in?

By the way, 20 wins this year would mean 270 total wins.

Since I haven't said it yet, I think he will get in but not early in the process (pushing the "how can you not be a HOF'er one year and be one the next argument aside :)). He's going to have to be patient and let the Smoltz's, Maddux, Johnson, etc. of his era get in first.

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As far as wins go a 20-7 record is pretty darn good. I would bet that won and loss percentage would be in the top 200 of all time with a minimum of 30 decisions. (Not talking about the ERA, just the wins and losses.) I mean you want to emphasize Mussina's total wins as a big deal, then so are Helling's wins in that season which are simply more than any Mussina accomplished in any single season.

Just want to point out that 20-7 is less than 30 decisions.

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Since I haven't said it yet, I think he will get in but not early in the process (pushing the "how can you not be a HOF'er one year and be one the next argument aside :)). He's going to have to be patient and let the Smoltz's, Maddux, Johnson, etc. of his era get in first.

Sure he is, because they are all better than him period! They truly deserve it based on all common markers of present HOFers whereas he doesn't have as many of them.:laughlol:

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20-7 is better than 16-5 by my math when it comes to wins and losses. I do grant you that 18-5 is pretty much the same, but again, it just shows that if a mediocre pitcher like Helling could get a twenty win season, why couldn't a proposed HOF pitcher like Mussina not easily do it? I don't wanna hear excuses. He just didn't get it done period. The HOF isn't about almost getting it done, you have to actually DO IT!

Methinks you confuse "you" and "your team."

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20-7 is better than 16-5 by my math when it comes to wins and losses. I do grant you that 18-5 is pretty much the same, but again, it just shows that if a mediocre pitcher like Helling could get a twenty win season, why couldn't a proposed HOF pitcher like Mussina not easily do it? I don't wanna hear excuses. He just didn't get it done period. The HOF isn't about almost getting it done, you have to actually DO IT!

Somebody doesn't understand the concepts of "number of games in the schedule" and "the offense scores runs, not the pitcher".

That's really funny, because I understand all of those concepts, and I am less than half of your age. And I knew all of that even before I started caring about stats deeper than wins and ERA, even back when I was in elementary school. I must be some kind of genius.

These were even concepts understood by baseball people back when you were growing up. There's a reason Maris' home run record had an asterisk for so long.

Either you don't understand these concepts, or you choose to ignore them and therefore disrespect anyone who decides to take on a discussion with you.

Either way, it reflects poorly on someone who's experience would otherwise be welcome among those to whom age doesn't matter.

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You don't make the HOF being Mr. Almost.

You know that Mike Mussina has won almost exactly the same percentage of his starts that Jim Palmer did? And that if Palmer had pitched in a five-man rotation, costing him 4-8 starts a year, he may not have ever won 20 games in a season?

Is Jim Palmer Mr. Almost, too? Should he have his plaque removed from Cooperstown?

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You know that Mike Mussina has won almost exactly the same percentage of his starts that Jim Palmer did? And that if Palmer had pitched in a five-man rotation, costing him 4-8 starts a year, he may not have ever won 20 games in a season?

Is Jim Palmer Mr. Almost, too? Should he have his plaque removed from Cooperstown?

Oh boy Drungo. This is one guy you don't wanna start an argument with.

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You know that Mike Mussina has won almost exactly the same percentage of his starts that Jim Palmer did? And that if Palmer had pitched in a five-man rotation, costing him 4-8 starts a year, he may not have ever won 20 games in a season?

Is Jim Palmer Mr. Almost, too? Should he have his plaque removed from Cooperstown?

Like I said, he either doesn't or doesn't want to understand these concepts.

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