The rise and fall on the O's starting pitching

[wildcard]

Its clearly a new season.   New Management.  And a new set of rules.   Hyde is about winning with the players given to him.    He has shown in the first few games that he is not committed to playing the previous everyday players all the time.   Davis has started two of the first three games.   Salary does not guarantee a starting position.  And quite frankly I will not  be surprised if Davis playing time is cut further if he doesn't hit.   Might we see that philosophy  extended to the starters?  I think it is likely.

Neither Cashner and Bundy made it to 5 innings in their first starts.   Their ERAs have ballooned in the early going.   This can't be blamed on the defense as it was last year.  The defense is much improved.     So now its on the starters to do their  job.  

Meanwhile there are relievers and an opener that are pitched well  in the first few games and could see expanded innings.   Karns went two scoreless opening Game 2.   Yacaboinis and Means went at least 3 innings and also pitched well.  In their next outings we may see them stretched out an inning each.   

So if the Cashner and Bundy don't improve from last season's 5.00+ ERA and the relievers continue to pitch well by the third cycle through the rotation will Hyde have some decisions to make?   Could we see the starters become relievers and relievers be put into the rotation.     It seems their salaries will not matter in the decision.   For Hyde its about winning.  And he likes competition between his players.

What do you think?

[Aristotelian]

I think Hyde does not care about the win rule or the save rule. The starters will probably keep starting, but if they run out of gas they will be pulled. Better to get 4 good innings than 6 innings getting crushed the last time through the order. The bullpen is going to need to pick up the slack but the starters can pitch an inning on their off days; Castro, Karns, Means, and Bleier can all go multiple innings; and we have a bunch of guys with options that can hit the shuttle. We will have even more flexibility when Araujo has done his time.

[Frobby]

I think any time a starter’s ERA is over 5.00, his spot in the rotation is in some jeopardy.    That said, the O’s don’t have a lot of good alternatives and Cashner and Bundy are being paid a lot of money compared to others, so they’ll get a ton of rope.    I fully expect each of them to be in the rotation through Memorial Day no matter what (other than injury).    If they or anyone else aren’t pitching well by then, we can evaluate whether there are better options.   

[Tx Oriole]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Its clearly a new season.   New Management.  And a new set of rules.   Hyde is about winning with the players given to him.    He has shown in the first few games that he is not committed to playing the previous everyday players all the time.   Davis has started two of the first three games.   Salary does not guarantee a starting position.  And quite frankly I will not  be surprised if Davis playing time is cut further if he doesn't hit.   Might we see that philosophy  extended to the starters?  I think it is likely.

Neither Cashner and Bundy made it to 5 innings in their first starts.   Their ERAs have ballooned in the early going.   This can't be blamed on the defense as it was last year.  The defense is much improved.     So now its on the starters to do their  job.  

Meanwhile there are relievers and an opener that are pitched well  in the first few games and could see expanded innings.   Karns went two scoreless opening Game 2.   Yacaboinis and Means went at least 3 innings and also pitched well.  In their next outings we may see them stretched out an inning each.   

So if the Cashner and Bundy don't improve from last season's 5.00+ ERA and the relievers continue to pitch well by the third cycle through the rotation will Hyde have some decisions to make?   Could we see the starters become relievers and relievers be put into the rotation.     It seems their salaries will not matter in the decision.   For Hyde its about winning.  And he likes competition between his players.

What do you think?

I don’t know. I haven’t even thought about the pitchers.

[mdbdotcom]

I don't think that we, or Hyde, learned anything from Bundy and Cashner's first starts. We'll see how it plays out.

[wildcard]

8 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

I don't think that we, or Hyde, learned anything from Bundy and Cashner's first starts. We'll see how it plays out.

Look at the big picture.  Cashner and Bundy ERAs over 5.00 last year.  Both had poor ST.  Either could go 5 in their first start and have ERAs over 5.00 to begin the season.   They will both get at least two more starts but how long does it continue before Elias/Hyde do something?  

Hopefully they  pitch better but if they don't their may be alternatives from the pen or from AAA.

Its not just one start.

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Its clearly a new season.   New Management.  And a new set of rules.   Hyde is about winning with the players given to him.    He has shown in the first few games that he is not committed to playing the previous everyday players all the time.   Davis has started two of the first three games.   Salary does not guarantee a starting position.  And quite frankly I will not  be surprised if Davis playing time is cut further if he doesn't hit.   Might we see that philosophy  extended to the starters?  I think it is likely.

Neither Cashner and Bundy made it to 5 innings in their first starts.   Their ERAs have ballooned in the early going.   This can't be blamed on the defense as it was last year.  The defense is much improved.     So now its on the starters to do their  job.  

Meanwhile there are relievers and an opener that are pitched well  in the first few games and could see expanded innings.   Karns went two scoreless opening Game 2.   Yacaboinis and Means went at least 3 innings and also pitched well.  In their next outings we may see them stretched out an inning each.   

So if the Cashner and Bundy don't improve from last season's 5.00+ ERA and the relievers continue to pitch well by the third cycle through the rotation will Hyde have some decisions to make?   Could we see the starters become relievers and relievers be put into the rotation.     It seems their salaries will not matter in the decision.   For Hyde its about winning.  And he likes competition between his players.

What do you think?

I think the bold above is true.  I also think that many of the way decisions have been made in the past will be different, for example, I think our lack of pitching in general may allow us to  see a continued use of what would previously have been side work occur on the mound in games.  That may or may not work, but it is inventive or a creative use of talent.  If that is Elias and not Hyde or both together, I applaud the concept, the same way I admired DD expanding Oriole pitching by creatively using the 40 man roster, which now everyone does.

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I think the bold above is true.  I also think that many of the way decisions have been made in the past will be different, for example, I think our lack of pitching in general may allow us to  see a continued use of what would previously have been side work occur on the mound in games.  That may or may not work, but it is inventive or a creative use of talent.  If that is Elias and not Hyde or both together, I applaud the concept, the same way I admired DD expanding Oriole pitching by creatively using the 40 man roster, which now everyone does.

Why do you think O's management will use side work in games?  Has this been talked about by Hyde or Elias?   

[mdbdotcom]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Look at the big picture.  Cashner and Bundy ERAs over 5.00 last year.  Both had poor ST.  Either could go 5 in their first start and have ERAs over 5.00 to begin the season.   They will both get at least two more starts but how long does it continue before Elias/Hyde do something?  

Hopefully they  pitch better but if they don't their may be alternatives from the pen or from AAA.

Its not just one start.

You say look at the big picture but you ignore Bundy's work in 2016 and '17.  Instead, you focus on how poorly he pitched after spraining his ankle in late June last season and 3.2 innings in a game that began with rain and 47 degree temperature. Too soon to judge.

Also, you talk about Bundy and Cashner as if they were attached at the hip. I don't think they belong in the same sentence. I was against the Cashner signing because he's always been a marginal pitcher who had one lucky season. Bundy has already proved he can pitch. Brocail says he's working to get him back to the way he pitched in 2016, and that might take some time.

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, mdbdotcom said:

You say look at the big picture but you ignore Bundy's work in 2016 and '17.  Instead, you focus on how poorly he pitched after spraining his ankle in late June last season and 3.2 innings in a game that began with rain and 47 degree temperature. Too soon to judge.

Also, you talk about Bundy and Cashner as if they were attached at the hip. I don't think they belong in the same sentence. I was against the Cashner signing because he's always been a marginal pitcher who had one lucky season. Bundy has already proved he can pitch. Brocail says he's working to get him back to the way he pitched in 2016, and that might take some time.

Fair points.   Bundy's velocity  appears to be down.   It makes him have to pitch backwards.  Use his off speed pitches to get outs.    The velo being down seems like a progression from year to  year.   What do you think is going on with that?

[foxfield]

Just now, wildcard said:

Why do you think O's management will use side work in games?  Has this been talked about by Hyde or Elias?   

IDK really, speculation on my part that this group will use every ounce to get by.  And how the first series went.  We used 14 pitchers in three games and we had an off day.  I don't think our pitching is necessarily going to stretch out considerably.  I think in order to not shuttle three guys a week, some creativity will be considered.  Opener is one.  Using side work in a game would be another.

[mdbdotcom]

Just now, wildcard said:

Fair points.   Bundy's velocity  appears to be down.   It makes him have to pitch backwards.  Use his off speed pitches to get outs.    The velo being down seems like a progression from year to  year.   What do you think is going on with that?

I don't know. Yesterday was just his first game of the season. He pitched better than Paxton. Do you think he is a better pitcher than Paxton? I would like for there to be a significant number of results before I form an opinion.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Fair points.   Bundy's velocity  appears to be down.   It makes him have to pitch backwards.  Use his off speed pitches to get outs.    The velo being down seems like a progression from year to  year.   What do you think is going on with that?

Did Bundy’s velocity improve when the weather warmed up last season? Bundy was topping out at 92 yesterday, which is going to be very hittable without good control and pitch selection. 

[BohKnowsBmore]

10 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Look at the big picture.  Cashner and Bundy ERAs over 5.00 last year.  Both had poor ST.  Either could go 5 in their first start and have ERAs over 5.00 to begin the season.   They will both get at least two more starts but how long does it continue before Elias/Hyde do something?  

Hopefully they  pitch better but if they don't their may be alternatives from the pen or from AAA.

Its not just one start.

Stephen Strasburg is rocking a 6.00 ERA right now.
J.A. Happ has a 9.00.
Carlos Carrasco has a 12.46.
Eduardo Rodriguez has a 10.38.
Blake Snell has a 7.50.
Cole Hamels has a 9.00.
Noah Syndergaard has a 6.00.

There are four entire teams in the MLB with ERAs greater than 8.00.

What does this all mean?  Not much, but that's sort of the point.  

[BohKnowsBmore]

2 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Did Bundy’s velocity improve when the weather warmed up last season? Bundy was topping out at 92 yesterday, which is going to be very hittable without good control and pitch selection. 

Last two seasons (and this one):

https://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=12917&position=P&pitchgraphs=true&statArr=&legend=1&split=base&time=daily&start=2017&end=2019&rtype=mult&gt1=15&dStatArray=FA&ymin=&ymax=