Orioles in the Outfield

[HowAboutThat]

55 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Is Santander a good defensive outfielder? I know he was playing out of position in center.But my friend said he has been just decent at  the corners and a few times people have went to second on nonchalantly getting to a grounder to the outfield 

He may not be outstanding, although he appears to be superior to our other options. But it’s OK, because corn has just said the outfield defense doesn’t matter. So we can just throw anybody in the outfield we want.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Philip said:

I’m sorry, I was wrong, outfield defense is not important. Let’s get three guys named Mark Trumbo hitting 47 homeruns each and lumbering around the outfield like the Africa Korps, and everything will be peachy.

This internet discussion thing just might not be for you.

You know and I know and you know that I know that you said "very important".  This is a feeble attempt to change the context of your original comment.

I asked you for supporting evidence that you obviously didn't have, you should have just backed down and admitted you had overstepped.

[7Mo]

22 minutes ago, bobmc said:

Well except for a catcher "fanning" on the catch, letting ball roll to backstop and looking for someone to cover home, that is.  

Especially when combined with sauntering.

[7Mo]

10 minutes ago, Philip said:

He may not be outstanding, although he appears to be superior to our other options. But it’s OK, because corn has just said the outfield defense doesn’t matter. So we can just throw anybody in the outfield we want.

Not until May. There's a conspiracy afoot to upset can_of_corn until then with Mountcastle.

[weams]

 

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

This internet discussion thing just might not be for you.

You know and I know and you know that I know that you said "very important".  This is a feeble attempt to change the context of your original comment.

I asked you for supporting evidence that you obviously didn't have, you should have just backed down and admitted you had overstepped.

 You… Isn’t it obvious? I shouldn’t have to support the contention that 2+2 is four. It is obvious that our outfield defense, in addition to giving up runs through errors, and sloppy play that is not called errors, forces the pitchers to work harder, which wears them out and gets into our bullpen sooner and wears the bullpen out. That is not something that should be debatable.

Trumbo’s 47 homerun season was the weakest such offensive season by WAR because his defense was so bad. If you think outfield defense doesn’t matter, that’s up to you. My comment was asking about the best balance of defense and offense, I am not ignoring , Offense, I was only asking for thoughts about the best balance of the two.

 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Philip said:

 You… Isn’t it obvious? I shouldn’t have to support the contention that 2+2 is four. It is obvious that our outfield defense, in addition to giving up runs through errors, and sloppy play that is not called errors, forces the pitchers to work harder, which wears them out and gets into our bullpen sooner and wears the bullpen out. That is not something that should be debatable.

Trumbo’s 47 homerun season was the weakest such offensive season by WAR because his defense was so bad. If you think outfield defense doesn’t matter, that’s up to you. My comment was asking about the best balance of defense and offense, I am not ignoring , Offense, I was only asking for thoughts about the best balance of the two.

 

Sounds to me like you can't prove a contention so you are just acting like it doesn't need to be proven.

I'll show you how to prove (well as much as you can prove anything over a small sample size using defensive metrics) it.

Find out how many runs someone like Trumbo allows in right field over say 120 outfield games and compare it to say Jason Heyward in right field.  That should give you a rough estimate of how valuable a skilled corner outfielder is over a butcher.

I honestly really love a good internet debate and it disappoints me that you are so bad at this.  I feel like I'm playing chess against myself.

 

Also, you need to quit asserting that I have said, or that you think I believe, that outfield defense doesn't matter.  I've not said that and you are beginning to actually annoy me by repeatedly lying about it.

[weams]

4 hours ago, Philip said:

I’m sorry, I was wrong, outfield defense is not important. Let’s get three guys named Mark Trumbo hitting 47 homeruns each and lumbering around the outfield like the Africa Korps, and everything will be peachy.

Honestly? That would probably work well. 

[orioles22]

Has anyone actually said outfield defense isn't important? Has anyone provided any reports that said Mountcastle can't be an average left fielder?

I'd like a great defensive center fielder. I'm hoping Mountcastle can be average and maybe grow into a pretty good left fielder. Didn't he play shortstop in high school? Does anyone say he's not athletic enough to play there eventually? I'd like to see him in Baltimore working with major league instructors on learning the position.

[now]

Part of the issue with Mountcastle is the competition. What if Santander, Hays, and Diaz all prove to be studs and better defenders? Then it's great for the O's and Mountcastle to have the option of playing him at first. 

Of course other scenarios are possible too. The three I mentioned are not locks, yet; there could be injuries; and there still might be a logjam with CD and Trey at first. So we might well see Mountcastle in LF by next year.

I agree the rest of the contenders are longer shots. Curious what y'all think of Williams tho. I haven't seen enough of him.

[weams]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

This internet discussion thing just might not be for you.

You know and I know and you know that I know that you said "very important".  This is a feeble attempt to change the context of your original comment.

I asked you for supporting evidence that you obviously didn't have, you should have just backed down and admitted you had overstepped.

I think that offensive and defensive values are combined to evaluate a player. Since defensive statistics are extremely hard to fairly value a player, an extreme offensive player at a non-critical position, such as corner outfield, may well turn out to help the team win more games than a speedy light hitting pairing in those slots. We just don;t really know yet. 

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, weams said:

Honestly? That would probably work well. 

 I don’t know whether you are being serious or joking, but if it is true that three awful defenders who hit lots of homeruns would end up being a greater benefit to the team, then I am no longer going to watch baseball, because that would just be too hard to watch. I don’t care about ten Home runs a game. It makes the game boring.

For example, would you rather watch a solo homerun, a grand slam, or Lorenzo Cain Run full speed for 75 feet and make a full length diving catch? Or Kevin Kiermaier sprint towards the wall, jump into the wall, use his right foot to propel himself up high in the air to pull back a ball that is Heading for the second row? Or Ichiro, he of the 75 or so career home runs, doing what he constantly did? 

Theres a balance to be had, between offense and defense. I’m sure there is an algorithm for how much offense one must produce to compensate for negative defense, but Trumbo’s 47 homers and 125 WRC( and 108 RBIs!) was only worth 2.2 fWAR, and the next year, his 23 homers/79 WRC only earned -1.3 fWAR.

I’d rather have someone like LoCain.

[weams]

4 minutes ago, Philip said:

 I don’t know whether you are being serious or joking, but if it is true that three awful defenders who hit lots of homeruns would end up being a greater benefit to the team, then I am no longer going to watch baseball, because that would just be too hard to watch. I don’t care about ten Home runs a game. It makes the game boring.

For example, would you rather watch a solo homerun, a grand slam, or Lorenzo Cain Run full speed for 75 feet and make a full length diving catch? Or Kevin Kiermaier sprint towards the wall, jump into the wall, use his right foot to propel himself up high in the air to pull back a ball that is Heading for the second row? Or Ichiro, he of the 75 or so career home runs, doing what he constantly did? 

Theres a balance to be had, between offense and defense. I’m sure there is an algorithm for how much offense one must produce to compensate for negative defense, but Trumbo’s 47 homers and 125 WRC( and 108 RBIs!) was only worth 2.2 fWAR, and the next year, his 23 homers/79 WRC only earned -1.3 fWAR.

I’d rather have someone like LoCain.

Remember.I believe defensive metrics, and the WAR they create, are badly flawed still.

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Philip said:

 I don’t know whether you are being serious or joking, but if it is true that three awful defenders who hit lots of homeruns would end up being a greater benefit to the team, then I am no longer going to watch baseball, because that would just be too hard to watch. I don’t care about ten Home runs a game. It makes the game boring.

For example, would you rather watch a solo homerun, a grand slam, or Lorenzo Cain Run full speed for 75 feet and make a full length diving catch? Or Kevin Kiermaier sprint towards the wall, jump into the wall, use his right foot to propel himself up high in the air to pull back a ball that is Heading for the second row? Or Ichiro, he of the 75 or so career home runs, doing what he constantly did? 

Theres a balance to be had, between offense and defense. I’m sure there is an algorithm for how much offense one must produce to compensate for negative defense, but Trumbo’s 47 homers and 125 WRC( and 108 RBIs!) was only worth 2.2 fWAR, and the next year, his 23 homers/79 WRC only earned -1.3 fWAR.

I’d rather have someone like LoCain.

Sure, of course you would prefer the vastly more talented player.  I'd like Trout in the outfield.  What if it was Trumbo or Keon Broxton?

[weams]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure, of course you would prefer the vastly more talented player.  I'd like Trout in the outfield.  What if it was Trumbo or Keon Broxton?

Or Cedric Mullins.