Orioles Shortstops

[DrungoHazewood]

Cross-posting from Bill James' site, but a cool observation:

Top 8 franchises, SS fielding runs, since 1954:
Orioles 602
White Sox 352
Cardinals 327
Royals 191
Pirates 159
Angels 153
Giants 139

Not really close.

At the other end, Padres are -351 and Houston is -285. No one else in that neighborhood.

Data from bb-ref.  The Orioles are farther ahead of #4 than #4 is from average.  This puts Belanger, Cal, Bordick, Hardy, Aparicio and the rest in an objective context.

[Sports Guy]

Hardy was so underrated.  He was such a good player.

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Hardy was so underrated.  He was such a good player.

Acquired for Brett Jacobson and Jim Hoey, neither of whom appeared in the majors after 2011.  Jacobson had 17 innings in AAA.  The Orioles won that trade in a lopsided shutout.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Acquired for Brett Jacobson and Jim Hoey, neither of whom appeared in the majors after 2011.  Jacobson had 17 innings in AAA.  The Orioles won that trade in a lopsided shutout.

Yep..I had pushed for Hardy for a while.  The injuries combined with his salary were huge reasons why he seemed to be a candidate for Minn to deal.

[DrungoHazewood]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yep..I had pushed for Hardy for a while.  The injuries combined with his salary were huge reasons why he seemed to be a candidate for Minn to deal.

JJ always looked like he was hurting, but only '15 and '17 did it have a big impact on his performances.  It's not completely coincidental that his two hurt years were the O's worst seasons from 2012-17.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Yep..I had pushed for Hardy for a while.  The injuries combined with his salary were huge reasons why he seemed to be a candidate for Minn to deal.

I remember well that you had been advocating for us to acquire Hardy for a long time.   I doubt you dreamt we’d get him so cheaply.   And it almost didn’t happen, as MacPhail was on the verge of trading Reimold for Jason Bartlett but Brady talked him out of it.   In hindsight, that was one of the best things Brady ever did, not because Reimold had much of a career thereafter, but because it left the door open for the Hardy trade.    (Note: I don’t believe Brady was an O’s exec at that time.   He was just someone who worked with O’s players on conditioning issues.)

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I remember well that you had been advocating for us to acquire Hardy for a long time.   I doubt you dreamt we’d get him so cheaply.   And it almost didn’t happen, as MacPhail was on the verge of trading Reimold for Jason Bartlett but Brady talked him out of it.   In hindsight, that was one of the best things Brady ever did, not because Reimold had much of a career thereafter, but because it left the door open for the Hardy trade.    (Note: I don’t believe Brady was an O’s exec at that time.   He was just someone who worked with O’s players on conditioning issues.)

I didn’t think we would have to give up much for him, based on how cheap Minnesota was and how he had been hurt and not performing greatly recently.  
 

I think we took on 9-10M, so a salary dump wasnt surprising.

[Tony-OH]

It's interesting how each GM has their plusses and minuses. MacPhail's was certainly a good trader. He wasn't an organization builder or a leader that used his subordinates strengths towards the organization's advantage, but his Bedard and Hardy trades alone set the pieces towards rebuilding a winning major league team.

[Sports Guy]

When is Hardy eligible for the Os HOF?  He has to get in immediately, right?

[Tony-OH]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I didn’t think we would have to give up much for him, based on how cheap Minnesota was and how he had been hurt and not performing greatly recently.  
 

I think we took on 9-10M, so a salary dump wasnt surprising.

Whoever was the scout that recommended the two pitchers they got in return obviously did not care about movement on fastballs. Jacobson may have had the truest fastball I'd ever seen, and Hoey wasn't much better.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

When is Hardy eligible for the Os HOF?  He has to get in immediately, right?

No doubt, especially based on who is already in there.

[bobmc]

36 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Cross-posting from Bill James' site, but a cool observation:

Top 8 franchises, SS fielding runs, since 1954:
Orioles 602
White Sox 352
Cardinals 327
Royals 191
Pirates 159
Angels 153
Giants 139

Not really close.

At the other end, Padres are -351 and Houston is -285. No one else in that neighborhood.

Data from bb-ref.  The Orioles are farther ahead of #4 than #4 is from average.  This puts Belanger, Cal, Bordick, Hardy, Aparicio and the rest in an objective context.

I love this!  I get that it's positive, obviously, but what exactly does "SS fielding runs" mean.  Runs saved?  btw - the Yanks and Jeter, Scooter, Kubek, etc?

[DrungoHazewood]

Just now, bobmc said:

I love this!  I get that it's positive, obviously, but what exactly does "SS fielding runs" mean.  Runs saved?  btw - the Yanks and Jeter, Scooter, Kubek, etc?

bb-ref's fielding runs that come from at least a couple systems depending on the timeframe.  But basically centered at zero, an average team or performance is 0.  For individuals +10 is very good, +20 is pretty epic.  The Orioles (mostly Belanger and Cal, with at least one Bordick season) have had 13 +20 seasons.

The O's have been so good that Luis Aparicio's best year is 19th, and he's in the Hall mostly for fielding.

The O's median SS performance since '54 is something like +10, which is at least in the Gold Glove conversation.

[Sports Guy]

30 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

bb-ref's fielding runs that come from at least a couple systems depending on the timeframe.  But basically centered at zero, an average team or performance is 0.  For individuals +10 is very good, +20 is pretty epic.  The Orioles (mostly Belanger and Cal, with at least one Bordick season) have had 13 +20 seasons.

The O's have been so good that Luis Aparicio's best year is 19th, and he's in the Hall mostly for fielding.

The O's median SS performance since '54 is something like +10, which is at least in the Gold Glove conversation.

The greatness of Ripken is an interesting debate to me.  A lot of people will look towards his defensive WAR and say it is overrated and driving up his all time WAR.

I find that argument to be rather amusing but people just can’t buy that he was that good defensively.

[LookinUp]

We didn't have the data at the time, but the narrative around Ripken was that he positioned himself so well that he was able to get to more balls. I have no idea what the modern stats would say about his range, but he did get a lot of volume by what I remember.