Orioles Shortstops

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

We didn't have the data at the time, but the narrative around Ripken was that he positioned himself so well that he was able to get to more balls. I have no idea what the modern stats would say about his range, but he did get a lot of volume by what I remember.

It's easier to position yourself when you are the one calling the pitches.

[SteveA]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Cross-posting from Bill James' site, but a cool observation:

Top 8 franchises, SS fielding runs, since 1954:
Orioles 602
White Sox 352
Cardinals 327
Royals 191
Pirates 159
Angels 153
Giants 139

Not really close.

At the other end, Padres are -351 and Houston is -285. No one else in that neighborhood.

Data from bb-ref.  The Orioles are farther ahead of #4 than #4 is from average.  This puts Belanger, Cal, Bordick, Hardy, Aparicio and the rest in an objective context.

And it's a cumulative stat, right?   So that means the Royals, who only existed for 52 of those 67 seasons, are a bit more impressive.

And the Padres ut up 0s for the 15 years they didn't exist, and still managed to be WAY at the bottom.   And they had Ozzie Smith for a while.   Wow. 

Houston missed out on 7 of the 67 years too, so their per annum total would be a bit worse too.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Acquired for Brett Jacobson and Jim Hoey, neither of whom appeared in the majors after 2011.  Jacobson had 17 innings in AAA.  The Orioles won that trade in a lopsided shutout.

Scott Erickson was also acquired from the Twins in another lopsided trade in 1995. The Twins got Scott Klingenbeck and Kimera Bartee in return. Klingenbeck posted an 8.30 ERA in 77 innings pitched for the Twins, and Bartee never played for the Twins and went back to the Orioles in the Rule 5 draft before ending up with the Tigers for several seasons.

Erickson won 79 games as Oriole and pitched 1,287 innings with an ERA+ of 97. 

[Frobby]

39 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Scott Erickson was also acquired from the Twins in another lopsided trade in 1995. The Twins got Scott Klingenbeck and Kimera Bartee in return. Klingenbeck posted an 8.30 ERA in 77 innings pitched for the Twins, and Bartee never played for the Twins and went back to the Orioles in the Rule 5 draft before ending up with the Tigers for several seasons.

Erickson won 79 games as Oriole and pitched 1,287 innings with an ERA+ of 97. 

And his ERA+ was dragged down terribly by his last couple of years with us when he was pitching with a bum shoulder.    Kind of like Tillman.    

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

31 minutes ago, Frobby said:

And his ERA+ was dragged down terribly by his last couple of years with us when he was pitching with a bum shoulder.    Kind of like Tillman.    

Good point. Erickson was a very solid #3 type starter from 1995 through the 1999 season before his body started to break down. 

[DrungoHazewood]

17 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The greatness of Ripken is an interesting debate to me.  A lot of people will look towards his defensive WAR and say it is overrated and driving up his all time WAR.

I find that argument to be rather amusing but people just can’t buy that he was that good defensively.

Some people still can't get past the idea that shortstops are supposed to be 5' 8" 165.

[DrungoHazewood]

15 hours ago, LookinUp said:

We didn't have the data at the time, but the narrative around Ripken was that he positioned himself so well that he was able to get to more balls. I have no idea what the modern stats would say about his range, but he did get a lot of volume by what I remember.

Modern stats say he was great.  My question would be whether most of that advantage would now be negated by everyone being positioned nearly optimally all the time.

[Chuck A]

39 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Modern stats say he was great.  My question would be whether most of that advantage would now be negated by everyone being positioned nearly optimally all the time.

This is where being at the games is so much better than watching on TV.  Being able to see the games within the game.  As a STH from '88-03 i was able to observe Cal re-position the infielders before pitches.  He was like having a coach in the field.  His 3 error season was amazing.  Did he have to range far?  Nope, he was in the right place most of the time.  He also relayed pitches behind his glove to the other infielders, open mouth/closed mouth to tell them whether fastball or not.  Did it help?  I guarantee it didn't hurt.  I was and will always remain a huge Cal fan due to how he carried himself and was humble around fans. 

Reasons like this are why I believe stats are great but the eye test deserves to be noted as well. 

 

[TommyPickles]

20 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

When is Hardy eligible for the Os HOF?  He has to get in immediately, right?

I'm really excited for some of the Orioles greats from the 2012-2016 Golden Age to get inducted into the O's Hall of Fame.

Jones

Markakis

Hardy

Machado

Britton

Buck

 

Anyone else who should make it? Anyone on this list not deserving? I know Manny left the team at 25, but I think he still deserves it.

 

 

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, TommyPickles said:

I'm really excited for some of the Orioles greats from the 2012-2016 Golden Age to get inducted into the O's Hall of Fame.

Jones

Markakis

Hardy

Machado

Britton

Buck

 

Anyone else who should make it? Anyone on this list not deserving? I know Manny left the team at 25, but I think he still deserves it.

 

 

I’m not sure Britton makes it. 

[InsideCoroner]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I’m not sure Britton makes it. 

If Britton gets in then I would expect O’Day to get in as well. 

[SteveA]

2 hours ago, TommyPickles said:

I'm really excited for some of the Orioles greats from the 2012-2016 Golden Age to get inducted into the O's Hall of Fame.

Jones

Markakis

Hardy

Machado

Britton

Buck

 

Anyone else who should make it? Anyone on this list not deserving? I know Manny left the team at 25, but I think he still deserves it.

 

 

Chris Davis has to make it, despite the albatross contract that followed.

Wieters?

How does the Orioles HoF handle front office people?   Are Cashen & Peters in?   If they are, does Duquette deserve a look?

[BobDylanBundy]

The Hardy trade was an excellent move but, in retrospect, the extension was probably one of the ten worst signings in the history of the franchise

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, BobDylanBundy said:

The Hardy trade was an excellent move but, in retrospect, the second extension was probably one of the ten worst signings in the history of the franchise

Fixed that for you.   MacPhail extended him for 3/$21 mm for 2012-14.

I previously did an evaluation of every Orioles contract over $20 mm, which you can find here:

 

[DrungoHazewood]

On 1/29/2021 at 7:44 AM, Chuck A said:

This is where being at the games is so much better than watching on TV.  Being able to see the games within the game.  As a STH from '88-03 i was able to observe Cal re-position the infielders before pitches.  He was like having a coach in the field.  His 3 error season was amazing.  Did he have to range far?  Nope, he was in the right place most of the time.  He also relayed pitches behind his glove to the other infielders, open mouth/closed mouth to tell them whether fastball or not.  Did it help?  I guarantee it didn't hurt.  I was and will always remain a huge Cal fan due to how he carried himself and was humble around fans. 

Reasons like this are why I believe stats are great but the eye test deserves to be noted as well. 

 

Wouldn't the eye test, in this case, show you that things were happening but not help to reach any conclusions about how effective they were?

If players were randomly positioned before each pitch some of the time the ball would be hit right at someone.  But you need a control and/or some kind of bookkeeping and analysis to tease out the positive or negative impact.