John Means 2021

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, fansince1988 said:

John Means deserves a bobblehead! Get this man a bobblehead already. 

He deserves a good team to pitch for.

[bpilktree]

Thinks is Means is an ace I think it is a guy who is top 7-8 in the league in pitchers.  I look at it as there is 15 teams in American League so that is about half of the teams in American League.  With that said let’s see who would rank as those top guys.  I think top 5 are pretty much secure you can argue order but those guys have been top for last couple years. 

1. Garret Cole

2. Shane Bieber

3. Zack Grienke

4. Hyun Jin Ryu

5. Tyler Glasnow

The next group for the next 5 I think would be.

6. Lance Lynn

7.Jose Berrios 

8.John Means 

9. Bradley Singer 

10. Kaneta Maeda

The list is lot better in the NL that is for sure so I think Means would be considered an ace in American League but not necessarily ace in all of baseball yet.  

[Sports Guy]

No, he’s not an ace.  There aren’t many aces in baseball.  Means isn’t on the level of guys like Cole and DeGrom.

There is a difference between an ace and a #1 starter.

[OriolesMagic83]

I remember when Mussina was in his prime years, people would argue that he wasn't an ace.  Of course they were comparing him w. pitchers like Clemens, Johnson, Maddux, Pedro, etc.  Looking back on his career, he was definitely an ace, but never the best pitcher in the AL, much less baseball.  To me an ace is a pitcher you can put up against a top team's ace and feel like you have a good chance of winning.  Of course, as others have mentioned gives you innings and is consistent. 

[InsideCoroner]

Maybe he’s not ‘an’ ace, but he’s our ace. He’s better than Tillman, even if Tillman had more dominant stuff (on the days he could locate his secondary pitches, at least). Means just consistently fools good hitters, and I really enjoy watching him on the mound. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, InsideCoroner said:

Maybe he’s not ‘an’ ace, but he’s our ace. He’s better than Tillman, even if Tillman had more dominant stuff (on the days he could locate his secondary pitches, at least). Means just consistently fools good hitters, and I really enjoy watching him on the mound. 

I don’t think Tillmans stuff was close to as good as Means.  Means throws harder, has better command and better secondary pitches.

[InsideCoroner]

16 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think Tillmans stuff was close to as good as Means.  Means throws harder, has better command and better secondary pitches.

Maybe. But for some years, Tillman was our ace. We have had a lot of guys in the last 10-15 years who were occasionally great but rarely with any consistency. Means has been consistent, whether good or bad (but mostly good). 

[LocoChris]

1.50 ERA is pretty ace-like. Early, SSS, blah blah blah but if he ends the year with an ERA around 3, that’s a respectable ace. 

[Pickles]

Rather than get hung up on the terminology, the most important thing to acknowledge is that Means is/has proven that 19 wasn't a fluke and that he is indeed a legit, good ML starting pitcher.

I asked on Opening Day, but where would you put his change-up on the scouting scale?

I put it on OD at a 70.  Watching all year it is consistently 65+.  Am I wrong?

Because a guy with a plus, often plus-plus, pitch has the ability to be an "ace."

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, LocoChris said:

1.50 ERA is pretty ace-like. Early, SSS, blah blah blah but if he ends the year with an ERA around 3, that’s a respectable ace. 

Sure.   If he does that, we can talk about it.   Right now he’s a pitcher who’s had five good starts.   

On the question of whether Means has better stiff than Tillman, I don’t know.   One thing Tillman had in his prime years was durability.   That’s what I want to see from Means.   30+ starts at 6+ IP per start.    Not sure they’ll even let him do that this year given their worry about limiting innings.   
 

[Pickles]

Quote

There are teams that would worry about arb prices for a career 125 ERA+ guy.

Sure.  And those teams would not be your market for getting prospects-ever.

[LA2]

10 hours ago, Oriole1940 said:

An Ace is a Pitcher who, every time he takes the ball, his team and fans can have a realistic expectation that he will win the game.  He, of course does not win every game, but the expectation is there that he could. And if the team is good enough to reach the playoffs he is the one that is given the ball for Game 1.  .   Brings to mind the saying in the 40s of  Spahn and Sain and 2  days of rain,   for the Boston Braves of the National League.     Warren Spahn and Johnny Sain.   I have tried all weekend to think of a saying for John Means,  but have not thought of one yet.  He needs some help,  cannot do it all.   

How about "Harvey and Means and pray for the In-betweens?"

[wildcard]

I can see the O's signing Means for 5 years this off season.  Buyout two years of his FA year.  Take him throw age 32.   He is a cornerstone of the rebuild and the next contending team.

After this year the O's only have one year of Davis at 23M.  Probably with him paid out as soon as they know whether there is a work stoppage next season.   Cobb's 10m will be off the books next year.  Fans is the stands next year the O's revenue will be up.    The O's will have money to spend.  Means will be a wise investment.

[Moose Milligan]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

Sure.   If he does that, we can talk about it.   Right now he’s a pitcher who’s had five good starts.   

On the question of whether Means has better stiff than Tillman, I don’t know.   One thing Tillman had in his prime years was durability.   That’s what I want to see from Means.   30+ starts at 6+ IP per start.    Not sure they’ll even let him do that this year given their worry about limiting innings.   
 

Careful, Froberto Clemente!  I got lectured last week that baseball isn't played that way anymore!  Can't expect starters to go past 5 innings anymore, 6+ is murky waters!

Anyway, this goes with the earlier tweet in this thread.  Small sample size, I know, I know...

 

 

[Sports Guy]

What I think will be interesting to see with Means is will Elias trade him?

Elias makes no bones about what he is trying to accomplish around here.  If Means keeps looking like a high end AS pitcher, does Elias look at him and say he is a long term piece or is he someone to bring back a huge haul?