Olney on O’s losing

[tntoriole]

30 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

This assumes a lot of things..main one being that if you add to the team that you are only adding to a 52 win team, which I think is bs.

And if you do spend that money and do better, maybe you have those guys in place and we celebrate a playoff appearance in 2022 as well.

Yes but JA has a lot less money in his poor mouth wallet.  How happy do you think JA was with not spending on free agents during those years? And how much of Elias relationship with Angelos would he have had to burn up to sign even middling free agents during the rebuild? 
Maybe the costs of revamping the organization were easier for Elias to get with the understanding about free agency signings? 

Edited September 29, 2023 by tntoriole

[LookinUp]

About John Angelos...

Yes, he puts his foot in his mouth. Yes he's been very cheap and unnecessarily so. But I think it's fair to think he will raise payroll some over the next few years. He almost has to. It's just a matter of how.

If he's somehow able to keep Elias happy and here, and if he does approve a somewhat higher budget, I feel like Elias can make it work. I feel like Elias has set us up for 6-8 years more success after this year already, and I think he'll extend that window every year he stays. And that success means more $$$ for Angelos. His plan is working.

So Angelos isn't the worst ever. In fact, he chose this direction and these leaders. He's just not willing to go all in on it. Could be worse. Just look at his father's entire tenure.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

About John Angelos...

Yes, he puts his foot in his mouth. Yes he's been very cheap and unnecessarily so. But I think it's fair to think he will raise payroll some over the next few years. He almost has to. It's just a matter of how.

If he's somehow able to keep Elias happy and here, and if he does approve a somewhat higher budget, I feel like Elias can make it work. I feel like Elias has set us up for 6-8 years more success after this year already, and I think he'll extend that window every year he stays. And that success means more $$$ for Angelos. His plan is working.

So Angelos isn't the worst ever. In fact, he chose this direction and these leaders. He's just not willing to go all in on it. Could be worse. Just look at his father's entire tenure.

There’s a lot to complain about with JA, but he made a great hire in Elias and he’s let him do his job.  Probably the two most important things an owner can do.  

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

There’s a lot to complain about with JA, but he made a great hire in Elias and he’s let him do his job.  Probably the two most important things an owner can do.  

Well, he’s let him do some of his job. 

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

About John Angelos...

Yes, he puts his foot in his mouth. Yes he's been very cheap and unnecessarily so. But I think it's fair to think he will raise payroll some over the next few years. He almost has to. It's just a matter of how.

If he's somehow able to keep Elias happy and here, and if he does approve a somewhat higher budget, I feel like Elias can make it work. I feel like Elias has set us up for 6-8 years more success after this year already, and I think he'll extend that window every year he stays. And that success means more $$$ for Angelos. His plan is working.

So Angelos isn't the worst ever. In fact, he chose this direction and these leaders. He's just not willing to go all in on it. Could be worse. Just look at his father's entire tenure.

He’s like his dad. Some things he’s good for, other things he’s not.

We need JA to stay with what he lets Elias do and sprinkle in some of the spending his dad did.

 

[Pickles]

Elias was very complimentary of JA last night.  He went out of his way to praise him.  He didn't have to do that.

As painful as it is to admit, JA deserves some credit.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He’s like his dad. Some things he’s good for, other things he’s not.

We need JA to stay with what he lets Elias do and sprinkle in some of the spending his dad did.

 

Yes, we will see about the spending, but as you pointed out, it could be a few years before he really needs to do much digging into his pockets.  The core of the team will be cheap for a while.  

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, we will see about the spending, but as you pointed out, it could be a few years before he really needs to do much digging into his pockets.  The core of the team will be cheap for a while.  

Yea but they should acquire some talent that costs money and should be looking to do some extensions.

[LookinUp]

7 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, we will see about the spending, but as you pointed out, it could be a few years before he really needs to do much digging into his pockets.  The core of the team will be cheap for a while.  

It's pure speculation on my part, and his public comments cast doubt on this, but I feel like success has to lead to payrolls beyond what his initial plan called for. 

[hallThalmt18h]

When people (Buster Olney, et al) say "tanking is bad for baseball" or "the Orioles tanked for years," what do they mean exactly? 

To me, it means...  If your team is awful, you are still supposed to go out and try to sign the best free agents you can get to come here. Basically - go out and get the Aubrey Huffs and (insert name of marginal #5 starter) of the world, and try to scratch and claw to 75 wins.  Orioles fans lived that for years. There is really no point in doing this - in bringing in players who will not be part of your next contending team - other than to prove to everyone that you are not tanking. 

While it's easy for outsiders to label it tanking - I think those of us who have been watching every day see a team that completely rebuilt its systems, established mechanisms to sign and develop international talent, completely bought into analytics, drafted well (not just the top 5 picks) and developed from within. I love what this team has done, and if that is "tanking," or "bad for baseball," I do not care.

[tntoriole]

32 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

About John Angelos...

Yes, he puts his foot in his mouth. Yes he's been very cheap and unnecessarily so. But I think it's fair to think he will raise payroll some over the next few years. He almost has to. It's just a matter of how.

If he's somehow able to keep Elias happy and here, and if he does approve a somewhat higher budget, I feel like Elias can make it work. I feel like Elias has set us up for 6-8 years more success after this year already, and I think he'll extend that window every year he stays. And that success means more $$$ for Angelos. His plan is working.

So Angelos isn't the worst ever. In fact, he chose this direction and these leaders. He's just not willing to go all in on it. Could be worse. Just look at his father's entire tenure.

John has done better than the old man.  Agree!   Pretty unlikely that John alienates an AL Manager of the year shortly after he wins the award to the extent that he resigns his job. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by tntoriole

[dystopia]

12 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Elias was very complimentary of JA last night.  He went out of his way to praise him.  He didn't have to do that.

As painful as it is to admit, JA deserves some credit.

He probably did have to if he wants to keep his job. 

[Moose Milligan]

I have long said that if the Orioles win the World Series in 5 games, there will be people on here upset that it wasn't done in 4.

Maybe we'll get to find out if that theory is correct this year.

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, dystopia said:

He probably did have to if he wants to keep his job. 

I call BS on that.

If JA fired Elias, he'd have a job before he got to the parking lot.

He didn't need to be as complimentary as he was.

[DrungoHazewood]

11 minutes ago, hallThalmt18h said:

When people (Buster Olney, et al) say "tanking is bad for baseball" or "the Orioles tanked for years," what do they mean exactly? 

To me, it means...  If your team is awful, you are still supposed to go out and try to sign the best free agents you can get to come here. Basically - go out and get the Aubrey Huffs and (insert name of marginal #5 starter) of the world, and try to scratch and claw to 75 wins.  Orioles fans lived that for years. There is really no point in doing this - in bringing in players who will not be part of your next contending team - other than to prove to everyone that you are not tanking. 

While it's easy for outsiders to label it tanking - I think those of us who have been watching every day see a team that completely rebuilt its systems, established mechanisms to sign and develop international talent, completely bought into analytics, drafted well (not just the top 5 picks) and developed from within. I love what this team has done, and if that is "tanking," or "bad for baseball," I do not care.

What they mean is that when you field a professional sports team the object of the game is to win and bring entertainment and joy for your fans, and there shouldn't be an environment where its advantageous to intentionally not win as much as you can for a number of years.

And I agree with that. MLB shouldn't have set itself up such that losing 110 games for 3-4 years is more advantageous than trying your best to win. It's ugly. We had to endure a lot of comically bad baseball the last few years. It drove off a substantial chunk of fans. Many came back this year, but many still haven't and may not ever.

Yes, in the context we have they did what they had to, and they did it very well. But there are other ways to run a league.