Should we have kept Brocail?

[SteveA]

50 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

What does Holt (the MLB pitching coach) have to do with Wells, Lowther and Rom developing changeups? Isn't that the job of people further down the chain? We've always had problems developing pitchers since before Holt and before Brocail even. 

Until this year, Wells, Lowther, and Kremer were all progressing well in the minors. Baumann and Rom are doing well. It's really hard to attribute fault since there are so many people involved, not least the players themselves. 

Personally, I don't believe much in pitching or hitting coaches making much of a difference. Their main purpose as far as I can tell is to have a fall guy around for when the team isn't doing well. 

Because Holt is not just the MLB pitching coach.   He is in charge of all pitching for the system.   That was stated when he was promoted.

There was talk of how Holt and company could analyze all your pitches using modern equipment, figure out which ones were most effective and guide you to throwing those pitches more and the less effective pitches less.   That they could identify potential good pitchers based on spin rate and other metrics.   There was also talk of how great it was for many young pitchers on our 60 man roster last year to spend the year working with Holt at Bowie, and that this year would be the time to promote him because a lot of those guys, notable Akin, Zimmerman, Kermer, Lowether, Alex Wells, would be in the majors a lot this year and they would have continuity in working with Holt.

When the rubber met the road this year, the results are awful.   Yes there is Tyler Wells, and Means.   And yes, Holt has not managed to screw up the best pitching prospect in the minors.   Yet.   But our pitching has been a monumental disappointment.   And Holt is in charge of the pitching for the entire system.   I'm not saying he needs to be fired, but there sure as hell needs to be an evaluation of his work by people above him based on the horrific shitshow we have seen this season.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

Maybe Spider Tack was the secret to the 2019 MiL improvement...

 

We all talked about how the MiL staff in 19 produced much better results. Last year obviously no data. 
 

 

But they were sucking before they too that away. 

[Tony-OH]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

No one knows for sure what Holt did to make them successful.  And no one can say any improvement anywhere belongs to Holt.  No one can also say any improvement DOESN'T belong to Holt, either.  

I'm not defending him, I'm also not laying blame at his feet 100% either as I don't think there's a lot of great talent to work with outside of G-Rod, Hall, etc.  Can't make chicken salad with chicken ****.

EVERY SINGLE PROSPECT that was in the major leagues have not improved this year. Other than Sulser, every single reliever went backwards. 

Again, I'm not saying it's all Holt's fault, I'm saying is we can forget the "secret sauce wizardy" that we were told Holt was bringing with him. 

[Ripken]

13 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

EVERY SINGLE PROSPECT that was in the major leagues have not improved this year. Other than Sulser, every single reliever went backwards. 

Again, I'm not saying it's all Holt's fault, I'm saying is we can forget the "secret sauce wizardy" that we were told Holt was bringing with him. 

Says something about Elias, too.

 

[Aristotelian]

20 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Because Holt is not just the MLB pitching coach.   He is in charge of all pitching for the system.   That was stated when he was promoted.

There was talk of how Holt and company could analyze all your pitches using modern equipment, figure out which ones were most effective and guide you to throwing those pitches more and the less effective pitches less.   That they could identify potential good pitchers based on spin rate and other metrics.   There was also talk of how great it was for many young pitchers on our 60 man roster last year to spend the year working with Holt at Bowie, and that this year would be the time to promote him because a lot of those guys, notable Akin, Zimmerman, Kermer, Lowether, Alex Wells, would be in the majors a lot this year and they would have continuity in working with Holt.

When the rubber met the road this year, the results are awful.   Yes there is Tyler Wells, and Means.   And yes, Holt has not managed to screw up the best pitching prospect in the minors.   Yet.   But our pitching has been a monumental disappointment.   And Holt is in charge of the pitching for the entire system.   I'm not saying he needs to be fired, but there sure as hell needs to be an evaluation of his work by people above him based on the horrific shitshow we have seen this season.

 

Fair enough. There is no argument that the MLB team has been terrible and in particular the O's internal prospects have been a massive, massive disappointment. Then again, I don't think anyone really expected miracles even if that was the party line. I would like to know more about what they are doing to try and help these guys transition to MLB or if they have any particular philosophy. For example, we knew in the Duquette years that the cut fastball was forbidden and how that turned out. Has that at least been reversed? 

 

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Hey, you want to look at things through orange colored glasses that's up to you. So tell me, what has he done to help any of those pitchers and how many of them do you think will be impact guys in the major leagues?

I don't know about impact guys.  That is in the eye of the beholder.  But Means, Grayson, Baumann, DL Hall, Tyler Wells and Bradish should help the team. 

Means says Holt helped him with his change up.  Wells has talked about how Holt has help him.  I have not heard enough interviews with the rest to even guess.  However, Holt is pitching Director for the whole O's organization.  So all the coaches report to him in some manner.  I would think he knows what is happening with each of these guys and leads how the pitching coaches are trying to help each pitcher.

Seems like the O's major league team is doing poorly with wins and posters on the OH are trying to place blame.  Even though the minors is ranked #2 and player are earning promotions.   

To each his own but I think we knew the O's were not trying to win this year and they did not spend money on the acquiring talent for the major league team this year.  That in and of itself is responsible for the most of poor showing at the major league level.  

 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Hey, you want to look at things through orange colored glasses that's up to you. So tell me, what has he done to help any of those pitchers and how many of them do you think will be impact guys in the major leagues?

He helped Means, who gives Holt a lot of credit for teaching him his change-up.   Obviously, that was big.  Otherwise, I can’t think of much.   You’d think that if he could help Means with it, he could help these other guys too.  But so far, no such luck.   

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

No, Holt is the pitching coordinator for the entire organization. From what I hear, managers and coaches are told what to teach and pitches to use or work on.

As for your last comment, for longtime major leaguers or veterans I agree, for developing pitchers I do not agree at all. 

Again, I'm not saying Holt is terrible, I'm saying that I haven't seen any marked improvements from someone. You know, someone suddenly using a Means career defining/changing changeup or a pitcher that says I'm completely different because of what I've learned with the Orioles.

I'm also not happy that every single rookie pitching prospect failed this year at the major league level. Why did all of their command fall off? Why did none of them improve? Why did Scott, Fry and Tate all go backwards this year? 

Besides Sulser, who has improved? 

I think Elias had a methodology before this season that players/pitchers should master a level before moveing up.    It appears over last winter they abandon that methodology probably in favor of low cost pitchers when there was limited revenue from no/few fans in the seats.

Akin never mastered AAA.

Kremer had 4 starts at AAA before 2021 with an 8.84 ERA. His 4 starts and 18.2 IP with the O's in 2020 with a 4.82 ERA and a 1.446 WHIP seem to override the need to follow the methodology. Bad choice.

Lowther pitched well at AA in 2019 but still has not done well at AAA.  Got injured.  Was put on the taxis squad which was probably not smart.

The O's have followed the methodology better with Alex then the other three.  He is 6-3 with a 3.78 ERA and a 1.112 WHIP at AAA in 47.2 IP this year.   We all know that Alex's lack of a mid 90's fastball is going to be a challenge for him in the majors.  

So if I guess what is the reason why the young O's starters didn't fair well in the majors I have to say they weren't ready because they did not spend enough time at AAA prior to coming to the majors.   The Alternate Site probably turned out to not be a good substitute for mastering AAA.  

I do think the player's salaries  played a big role in the forming for the 26 man roster coming into a season without fans and then limited fans.   Low cost rookies were picked over acquiring more expensive pitchers.   They tried with retreads like Felix, Matt Harvey and Lopez but quality just was not they in the 1st half the season.   And may not be there in 2nd half either.

[bobmc]

16 minutes ago, Frobby said:

He helped Means, who gives Holt a lot of credit for teaching him his change-up.   Obviously, that was big.  Otherwise, I can’t think of much.   You’d think that if he could help Means with it, he could help these other guys too.  But so far, no such luck.   

Based upon his TV commentary, I believe they all could use a good dose of JP "tough love" and a seminar describing his why's and wherefores on the Philosophy of Pitching 101.  JMHO. 

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

I don't know about impact guys.  That is in the eye of the beholder.  But Means, Grayson, Baumann, DL Hall, Tyler Wells and Bradish should help the team. 

Means says Holt helped him with his change up.  Wells has talked about how Holt has help him.  I have not heard enough interviews with the rest to even guess.  However, Holt is pitching Director for the whole O's organization.  So all the coaches report to him in some manner.  I would think he knows what is happening with each of these guys and leads how the pitching coaches are trying to help each pitcher.

Seems like the O's major league team is doing poorly with wins and posters on the OH are trying to place blame.  Even though the minors is ranked #2 and player are earning promotions.   

To each his own but I think we knew the O's were not trying to win this year and they did not spend money on the acquiring talent for the major league team this year.  That in and of itself is responsible for the most of poor showing at the major league level.  

 

Have you ever heard of a pitching coach who didn’t have some players say, so and so helped me with this or that?

I mean, that is their job.  Not really a big deal that helped someone do something.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Have you ever heard of a pitching coach who didn’t have some players say, so and so helped me with this or that?

I mean, that is their job.  Not really a big deal that helped someone do something.

First off yea, guys are generally going to be willing to share some credit when they do well, it's basic decency.

Also, some players click with a certain coach some click with another.

It's mostly about the talent.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Have you ever heard of a pitching coach who didn’t have some players say, so and so helped me with this or that?

I mean, that is their job.  Not really a big deal that helped someone do something.

I’m sure someone said something nice about Connor or Adair once, but I honestly don’t recall it.   I do remember hearing a lot of criticism of Adair after the fact.   Connor wasn’t here long enough to have much impact.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

I think Elias had a methodology before this season that players/pitchers should master a level before moveing up.    It appears over last winter they abandon that methodology probably in favor of low cost pitchers when there was limited revenue from no/few fans in the seats.

 

Please quantify the term master for me (in this context).

Unless you can, I would like you to stop using it.

 

[Just Regular]

5 hours ago, andrewochs615 said:

I was thinking this the other day, every pitching coach we have had since Adair has been touted as some sort of wizard saving grace. From Wallace and Chiti, to Mark Connor, to McDowell, to even Rick Peterson (although not officially a coach). Now it's Holt. Everyone of those guys seemed to be touted as the savior. 

You should have been here when we got Leo Mazzone.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

12 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

You should have been here when we got Leo Mazzone.

I think we forgot you can't turn Sidney Ponson and Daniel Cabrera into Maddux and Glavine no matter how good a pitching coach.