Hangouters have stopped being fans

[Mackus]

We can just as easily build off of any success we have now and use it towards long-term success then just dump everyone for prospects (even good ones) and still have to wait several years for a return, if we get any.

Which of our core players can be expected to improve their performance over the next couple years? I'd say only Markakis and Loewen. Ray can probably get back to his 2006 form as well.

Who in addition to them can we expect to sustain their current performance? I'd say only Roberts, Bedard, and maybe Guthrie.

Which young guys do we have ready to break in and contribute starting next season? I'd say only Olson and Hoey.

Pretty much everyone else on the team is a pretty safe bet to deteriorate further over the next 1-2 seasons. That's not a team that is close to contention.

[BaltimoreTerp]

So what? This argument is so ridiculous...A lot of baseball games are close. The Orioles are still a 75 win team. That is not close to anything.

You win seven of those twenty-eight (possible with a better-performing bullpen earlier this season) and suddenly, even under YOUR logic, we're an above-.500 team. You can build off that.

Saying the pen and offense is doing better is a real accomplishment.

Considering that both were essentially at their worst-case scenario in the first-half, better performance is important. It shows that reports of their demise were greatly exaggerated, and that certain players that were written off, like Baez and Ray, might actually be somewhat close to who they are supposed to be.

Knowing what we have is the most important thing, not just going into a new season, but in doing what YOU want to do, which is make trades.

Well, since i don't remember seeing anyone say dump the "good" players for nothing, this is pretty obvious

Since you didn't comprehend what I said, I doubt it is.

I didn't say good PLAYERS, I said good TRADES.

No trading Millar just because he is "old". No trading Cabrera just because he is inconsistant. No trading Baez for nothing because of a bad first half.

Depends on what happens over the next week. If their plan stays the same(you know, the plan you think is so good), then yes, next year is hopeless too. How has that been working out for us?

I would love to hear, from your personal conversations with the higher-ups in our front office (like Duquette and MacPhail) what exactly their plan is that would be staying "the same", so I know if it is the one that I "think is so good" (which, for the record, is trying to win games while looking for places to make real improvements).

How is that sand tasting?

I love how a newer person can be condecending to you (even using such a taboo word as "damn") and get stampeded by people going after him for it, then you can be consistantly condecending towards anyone who actually dares to argue your point, and not get a thing happen.

You really do need to get off your high horse.

[Sports Guy]

You win seven of those twenty-eight (possible with a better-performing bullpen earlier this season) and suddenly, even under YOUR logic, we're an above-.500 team. You can build off that.

But you didn't win those 7.

I think i predicted 83 wins for this team this year...Above 500 means nothing with our roster.

Considering that both were essentially at their worst-case scenario in the first-half, better performance is important. It shows that reports of their demise were greatly exaggerated, and that certain players that were written off, like Baez and Ray, might actually be somewhat close to who they are supposed to be.

Problem is(other than Ray) many of those players are supposed to be anything more than average and at their ages, could be much worse and quickly.

Since you didn't comprehend what I said, I doubt it is.

I didn't say good PLAYERS, I said good TRADES.

And who has advocated bad trades?

I would love to hear, from your personal conversations with the higher-ups in our front office (like Duquette and MacPhail) what exactly their plan is that would be staying "the same", so I know if it is the one that I "think is so good" (which, for the record, is trying to win games while looking for places to make real improvements).

Notice how i said...IF their plan stays the same? And you have liked their plan and have said so many times.

For you to deny that is pathetic.

I love how a newer person can be condecending to you (even using such a taboo word as "damn") and get stampeded by people going after him for it, then you can be consistantly condecending towards anyone who actually dares to argue your point, and not get a thing happen.

You really do need to get off your high horse.

Awe, poor baby. A tear rolls down my cheek for you.

Give me a break...For as long as you have been posting here, your head has been in the sand.

You don't think they do things wrong, you love their direction and you think guys like Sapper(you know, the ones who are right), are not real fans.

[EddieO's21]

Those who don't want change are the poor fans.

i disagree with this...fans come in all shapes and sizes and have a lot of different opinions. To say that a fan who wants to stay the course somewhat is not a fan is pretty hasty.

[cindyluvsbrady]

SG, you claim to like CAL but I am sure you had him in one of your trade plans one day.

No O seems to matter except WHAT you think we can get for him.At least thats what YOU say!

[DrLev]

This thread has broken down into childish name-calling, which isn't accomplishing anything for anyone.

Sports Guy, you've made your opinions eminently clear. However, that's what they are: opinions. Surprisingly, everybody else is entitled to one, too. They may be less thought-out than what you would like, or they may go counter to your own, but that does not make them invalid or subject to ridicule. Peoples' opinions can be misguided, but they are never wrong. They are subjective responses to valid issues. The purpose of any thread like this is to stir up debate, not an excuse to lash out at people who merely express their thoughts. And any time you or anyone else replies to someone's opinion with a retort to the effect of "No, you are wrong," or tells someone they make a "poor argument" but don't add to the debate with why it is a poor argument, you're just stirring up the coals and not being in any way, shape or form, productive to the conversation. In fact, you're actively detracting from it by inciting anger. By answering often unjustified statements with further unjustified statements, you're essentially performing a real-life version of the Monty Python "Argument Clinic" sketch.

So what's more productive? Adding to the discussion. Enlightening other people by explaining your reasons for disagreeing with them. Not turning the debate into an "am too!" "am not!" fight that does nothing but arouse base emotions.

This was not meant to be a personal attack. I've backed up my thoughts here, and have used SG as an example because he's been the most visible person (given his sheer number of posts) to whom my argument applies in this thread.

On the original topic, I personally agree with Wedge (all the way back on page 2 of the thread) that you cannot categorize fandom. Some people here are lay fans. They don't understand the complex statistics, and some couldn't even tell you what "slugging" is. They hang more on the emotions and hunches anybody who is a sports fan can have. Some people here are statheads, endlessly enlightening us with statistics I only barely understand. Many of us, myself included, are somewhere in the middle. I think statistics are powerful indicators, but I still trust my intuition which may or may not have any basis in numerical fact. Each type of person adds to this community, and by the mere act of taking the time to post on the Orioles Hangout or even just read threads daily, they prove to me anyway that they are fans of the Baltimore Orioles.

[JJLinn29]

This thread has broken down into childish name-calling, which isn't accomplishing anything for anyone.

Sports Guy, you've made your opinions eminently clear. However, that's what they are: opinions. Surprisingly, everybody else is entitled to one, too. They may be less thought-out than what you would like, or they may go counter to your own, but that does not make them invalid or subject to ridicule. Peoples' opinions can be misguided, but they are never wrong. They are subjective responses to valid issues. The purpose of any thread like this is to stir up debate, not an excuse to lash out at people who merely express their thoughts. And any time you or anyone else replies to someone's opinion with a retort to the effect of "No, you are wrong," or tells someone they make a "poor argument" but don't add to the debate with why it is a poor argument, you're just stirring up the coals and not being in any way, shape or form, productive to the conversation. In fact, you're actively detracting from it by inciting anger. By answering often unjustified statements with further unjustified statements, you're essentially performing a real-life version of the Monty Python "Argument Clinic" sketch.

So what's more productive? Adding to the discussion. Enlightening other people by explaining your reasons for disagreeing with them. Not turning the debate into an "am too!" "am not!" fight that does nothing but arouse base emotions.

This was not meant to be a personal attack. I've backed up my thoughts here, and have used SG as an example because he's been the most visible person (given his sheer number of posts) to whom my argument applies in this thread.

On the original topic, I personally agree with Wedge (all the way back on page 2 of the thread) that you cannot categorize fandom. Some people here are lay fans. They don't understand the complex statistics, and some couldn't even tell you what "slugging" is. They hang more on the emotions and hunches anybody who is a sports fan can have. Some people here are statheads, endlessly enlightening us with statistics I only barely understand. Many of us, myself included, are somewhere in the middle. I think statistics are powerful indicators, but I still trust my intuition which may or may not have any basis in numerical fact. Each type of person adds to this community, and by the mere act of taking the time to post on the Orioles Hangout or even just read threads daily, they prove to me anyway that they are fans of the Baltimore Orioles.

Best post ever. It's amazing that moderation/administration allows him to belittle and automatically dismiss everyone's opinion just because he's been around so long. Get a clue: you are not the voice of reason when it comes to the Orioles. You are not right like you think you always are. And twisting around what people that don't agree with you say to make your argument look good, doesn't make it (or you) look good, contrary to your belief.

[SteveA]

The more emotional fan is never going to understand how, whenever Bedard pitches a great game, and the emotional fan is celebrating and basking in joy from that win, there is inevitably a post that pops up saying "Trade Bedard now while his value is highest".

The statistical/logical fan can't understand how the emotional fan can find any joy in a single victory when the team is essentially out of contention and thus he finds that single victory meaningless.

That chasm between two different types of fans who view the game differently and get their enjoyment of the game in different ways, will never be breached. And occasionally that gap of understanding, where each side is equally unable to understand how the other type relates to the game of baseball, will flare up into an argument like this. It's inevitable and will happen over and over again.

[tennOsfan]

Best post ever. It's amazing that moderation/administration allows him to belittle and automatically dismiss everyone's opinion just because he's been around so long. Get a clue: you are not the voice of reason when it comes to the Orioles. You are not right like you think you always are. And twisting around what people that don't agree with you say to make your argument look good, doesn't make it (or you) look good, contrary to your belief.

As annoying as SG can come off sometimes, he knows baseball very well and makes this board a more interesting place. If everyone here agreed with everyone else, the OH wouldn't be what it is. The point I'm trying to make is people shouldn't take some of these posts so seriously.

[Sports Guy]

Best post ever. It's amazing that moderation/administration allows him to belittle and automatically dismiss everyone's opinion just because he's been around so long. Get a clue: you are not the voice of reason when it comes to the Orioles. You are not right like you think you always are. And twisting around what people that don't agree with you say to make your argument look good, doesn't make it (or you) look good, contrary to your belief.

Trust me when i say the mods allow people to give it to me more than i give it to other posters.

[JJLinn29]

As annoying as SG can come off sometimes, he knows baseball very well and makes this board a more interesting place. If everyone here agreed with everyone else, the OH wouldn't be what it is. The point I'm trying to make is people shouldn't take some of these posts so seriously.

I'm not saying we all have to agree with everyone, I'm saying people should be able to have their own opinion without him being ridiculous, automatically dismissing it if he doesn't agree, calling it "poor" or "weak" with no reasoning behind it, and belittling people constantly.

[Sports Guy]

I'm not saying we all have to agree with everyone, I'm saying people should be able to have their own opinion without him being ridiculous, automatically dismissing it if he doesn't agree, calling it "poor" or "weak" with no reasoning behind it, and belittling people constantly.

Or people could just not cry about it, understand that this is just a message board and deal with it.

[Sports Guy]

I read almost every thread on this board and I don't agree with this assessment. You bring a lot to the board, but your tone leaves a lot to be desired at times.

Pot calling kettle black.

And you can believe it all you want but trust me, i hear about it, have been banned and what not and never, ever see anyone get called out publicly buy the mods the way i do and trust me when i say, if i wanted to be a little girl and whine to the mods about things said to me in rep or PM, a lot of people would be banned.

But i am not like that..I am not a whiner. I am not going to cry about it.

As far as my tone..Sometimes it is bad and other times it is blown out of proportion.

This is a freakin message board....You have no idea facial expression, the way it is said or anything like that. You draw conclusions about what you THINK you know but that doesn't make it right by any means.

[JJLinn29]

This is a freakin message board....You have no idea facial expression, the way it is said or anything like that. You draw conclusions about what you THINK you know but that doesn't make it right by any means.

So how, exactly, would you interpret it if you were reading someone commenting on another person's opinion, in the process saying "you're wrong", "you're argument is weak", and sometimes resorting to name calling? Would you honestly not think that said person doesn't believe he's better than the people he posts in threads with, and is borderline personally attacking them?

[ScottieBaseball]

Best post ever. It's amazing that moderation/administration allows him to belittle and automatically dismiss everyone's opinion just because he's been around so long. Get a clue: you are not the voice of reason when it comes to the Orioles. You are not right like you think you always are. And twisting around what people that don't agree with you say to make your argument look good, doesn't make it (or you) look good, contrary to your belief.

If you have a problem with the way this board is moderated, please direct your comments at a moderator privately. That being said...

It's no secret that Sports Guy can come off as abrasive sometimes. He admittedly toes the line regarding the rules here and when he crosses the line he's reprimanded for it. To imply that the moderation/administration is allowing him to break rules is entirely incorrect. Not that I need to justify and validate the moderation here, but he was recently "released" for a few days for breaking rules.

If you don't like his style of debate/argument/etc., then don't engage him. I don't always agree with him and whether you like him or not, he's one of the smartest baseball people on this message board and is as much if not more of a die-hard Orioles baseball fan than anyone else on this board. He has taken as much abuse as he has dished out on this message board over the last few years, trust me.

If he breaks a rule (and read the board policies and rules beforehand), PM me. Otherwise, put him on your ignore list or do whatever you have to do in order to feel better. The truth is that he brings way more to the table than he detracts.