Hall of Fame 2009

[DrungoHazewood]

A list of people who we know have taken illegal drugs and are or will be in the Hall of Fame.

I'll even start: Tim Raines

Convenient for the folks who played before reliable tests were available for many/most/all drugs, huh? Guess we just assume everyone prior to a certain date was Mother Theresa?

One of the things I hate most about this mess is the implied assumption that everyone who played before a certain date (usually about 1990) was clean as the wind-driven snow. Well, either that or stories about how Mickey and the boys would down a 24-pack of their favorite suds (and never anything else!) and go out and hit 11 homers the next day, and how that makes them morally superior to today's athletes.

[mweb]

A list of people who we know have taken illegal drugs and are or will be in the Hall of Fame.

I'll even start: Tim Raines

Paul Molitor.

Any player that drank alcohol when it was illegal in the 20's. Babe Ruth would certainly be on that list.

And of course there's a huge list of players who have used greenies since it became illegal in 1970. But I'm not going to try to find a list which contains an estimated 50-80% of all players in recent years.

My point wasn't to make a list out of this, just to find out how far you take this philosophy.

[Migrant Redbird]

... But Ruth didn't just stop at the watering hole to find an edge. According to The Baseball Hall of Shame's Warped Record Book, by Bruce Nash, Allan Zullo and Bob Smith, the Bambino fell ill one year attempting to inject himself with extract from a sheep's testes. This effort by more than a few athletes of his era to seek the healing and strengthening properties of testosterone prefigured the craze for steroids.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060522/zirin

Then there's also reason to believe Hank Aaron used steroids at the towards the end of his career.

CBS Sports News quoted the same book. I bought it. It's available used for the cost of shipping from Amazon's partners. I didn't "read" it, but I pored through it page by page, forwards and backwards, and couldn't find the anecdote about the Babe.

Maybe it was in a different edition or maybe this is just another urban legend?

A 19th century French researcher reported beneficial effects from rooster testicles extracts and I'd be willing to bet that similar ingredients were in many patent medicines of that era, so I think it's likely that many 19th and early 20th century athletes used similar concoctions in the hope of gaining an edge. However, I seriously doubt that the stuff they used helped them much if it helped at all.

Aaron is a different case. Soviet weight lifters and American body builders were into steroids in a big way in the fifties and Tom House admitted to using steroids in the sixties, claiming that a third of the pitchers in the sixties and seventies were experimenting with steroids. If pitchers were using steroids that widely, you can bet that hitters were seeking the same kind of edge. I don't know that Aaron used steroids and I'm skeptical of unconfirmable reports that he did, but the opportunity was definitely there for any baseball player who played after the mid-fifties.

[mweb]

Greenies, or uppers, make you high strung. More energetic. While some people might find this helpful, I guess, it seems it would make it harder to do some things baseball related, like hit a change up. And greenies don't increase muscle mass or recuperative powers.

Here you go:

"Greenies, a nickname coined by ballplayers because of the color of the pills, were introduced to the game in the 1940s. These amphetamines speed up the heart rate and have been proven to fight fatigue, increase alertness and sharpen reaction time. Athletes have used them to challenge the limits of endurance — and mask the accompanying pain."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/04/02/PBP_AMPHET_0402.html

[Satyr3206]

Convenient for the folks who played before reliable tests were available for many/most/all drugs, huh? Guess we just assume everyone prior to a certain date was Mother Theresa?

One of the things I hate most about this mess is the implied assumption that everyone who played before a certain date (usually about 1990) was clean as the wind-driven snow. Well, either that or stories about how Mickey and the boys would down a 24-pack of their favorite suds (and never anything else!) and go out and hit 11 homers the next day, and how that makes them morally superior to today's athletes.

Good point. After reading Ball Four and Joe Pepitone's book, when I was younger I figured out baseball players weren't Saints. But there is a big difference between (beer, liquor, greenies), and steroids. Steroids alter your body to increase ability. The others generally hurt ability. My issue isn't about morality, per se, it's more about chemically altering your body above the normal playing field.

[mweb]

CBS Sports News quoted the same book. I bought it. It's available used for the cost of shipping from Amazon's partners. I didn't "read" it, but I pored through it page by page, forwards and backwards, and couldn't find the anecdote about the Babe.

Maybe it was in a different edition or maybe this is just another urban legend?

A 19th century French researcher reported beneficial effects from rooster testicles extracts and I'd be willing to bet that similar ingredients were in many patent medicines of that era, so I think it's likely that many 19th and early 20th century athletes used similar concoctions in the hope of gaining an edge. However, I seriously doubt that the stuff they used helped them much if it helped at all.

Aaron is a different case. Soviet weight lifters and American body builders were into steroids in a big way in the fifties and Tom House admitted to using steroids in the sixties, claiming that a third of the pitchers in the sixties and seventies were experimenting with steroids. If pitchers were using steroids that widely, you can bet that hitters were seeking the same kind of edge. I don't know that Aaron used steroids and I'm skeptical of unconfirmable reports that he did, but the opportunity was definitely there for any baseball player who played after the mid-fifties.

Yeah, here's an article on House and steroids.

Former major league pitcher Tom House used steroids during his career and said performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and 1970s, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Tuesday.

House, perhaps best known for catching Hank Aaron's 715th home run ball in 1974 in the Atlanta Braves' bullpen, said he and several teammates used amphetamines, human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find in order to keep up with the competition.

"I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

House, 58, estimated that six or seven pitchers per team were at least experimenting with steroids or human growth hormone. He said players talked about losing to opponents using more effective drugs.

"We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed," he said. "And when you found out what they were taking, you started taking them."

[mweb]

Good point. After reading Ball Four and Joe Pepitone's book, when I was younger I figured out baseball players weren't Saints. But there is a big difference between (beer, liquor, greenies), and steroids. Steroids alter your body to increase ability. The others generally hurt ability. My issue isn't about morality, per se, it's more about chemically altering your body above the normal playing field.

Again, you're not right about greenies.

Ruth also felt alcohol helped him, but otherwise I agree with you.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Paul Molitor.

Any player that drank alcohol when it was illegal in the 20's. Babe Ruth would certainly be on that list.

And of course there's a huge list of players who have used greenies since it became illegal in 1970. But I'm not going to try to find a list which contains an estimated 50-80% of all players in recent years.

My point wasn't to make a list out of this, just to find out how far you take this philosophy.

50-80%? That seems like a pretty big range there, especially when we are talking about keeping players out of the Hall of Fame.

Like I said, that we KNOW.

[Satyr3206]

Again, you're not right about greenies.

Ruth also felt alcohol helped him, but otherwise I agree with you.

Greenies are speed, or diet pills. While they may help with fatigue over short periods of time, if you keep taking them eventually you will crash, and I don't see how that could be beneficial over the long term. And if Ruth felt alcohol helped then more power to him. I don't want to see 95 MPH fastballs with a hangover.

[mweb]

50-80%? That seems like a pretty big range there, especially when we are talking about keeping players out of the Hall of Fame.

Like I said, that we KNOW.

I think you're confusing my points here, I was basically asking what you were and weren't ok with, the comment about half the HOF'ers not being eligible for the HOF was a separate thought.

The bottom line regarding your list is we don't know without a doubt about many players at all.

So I guess you want baseball to take out and keep out the few we know about while probably having at least half of the HOF filled with players who are also guilty using your standards. And who knows what type of proof is required here, is it like a court of law? If that's the case, some guys who were rather obvious offenders would still have to be let in. Should there be a trial before anyone is admitted?

I think that's unfair to say the least. I also thinks it's naive depending on how you think about it, it at least leads to others being naive enough to think the guys in the Hall played fairly.

Edit: And as Drungo basically said, this type of approach lets players from past generations off the hook, since there was no testing, little to no media trying to find stories like this, and little to no effort from the goverment to bust players on things like this.

[mweb]

Greenies are speed, or diet pills. While they may help with fatigue over short periods of time, if you keep taking them eventually you will crash, and I don't see how that could be beneficial over the long term. And if Ruth felt alcohol helped then more power to him. I don't want to see 95 MPH fastballs with a hangover.

Ok, so let me get this straight, an estimated 50-80% of players were using this even though it wasn't beneficial? Hmmm, really?

And you could argue about the long term benefits of steroids as well since they often have led to injuries.

Another quote from the article I linked:

"It's going to have a lot bigger effect on the game than steroid testing," said Chipper Jones, the Atlanta Braves' All-Star third baseman. "It's more rampant than steroids. ... I think the fringe players will be weeded out."

[DrungoHazewood]

Good point. After reading Ball Four and Joe Pepitone's book, when I was younger I figured out baseball players weren't Saints. But there is a big difference between (beer, liquor, greenies), and steroids. Steroids alter your body to increase ability. The others generally hurt ability. My issue isn't about morality, per se, it's more about chemically altering your body above the normal playing field.

What about cortisone shots? Isn't that chemically altering your body to play at a level you otherwise couldn't? Same with painkillers. Or cold medicine.

Why stop at chemically altering? Why should Brian Roberts be allowed to use contacts that make his vision better than 20/20? Why should Tommy John surgery be legal? Or any potentially performance-enhancing surgery or medical procedure? If it's all about using one's natural abilities, there's nothing natural about pushing your body beyond its natural limits, breaking it, and then relying on modern medicine to bring you back to 100% or more of your prior level.

[Ruzious]

What about cortisone shots? Isn't that chemically altering your body to play at a level you otherwise couldn't? Same with painkillers. Or cold medicine.

Why stop at chemically altering? Why should Brian Roberts be allowed to use contacts that make his vision better than 20/20? Why should Tommy John surgery be legal? Or any potentially performance-enhancing surgery or medical procedure? If it's all about using one's natural abilities, there's nothing natural about pushing your body beyond its natural limits, breaking it, and then relying on modern medicine to bring you back to 100% or more of your prior level.

I prefer physical altering that doesn't violate federal laws.