Getting the roster from 27 to 38

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Philip said:

Half the guys in this chat should be members of Congress, because you’re saying the same things over and over and not listening to each other.

Mike made a mistake letting Pop go, he’s made lots of mistakes, so what? He’s not Jesus and everybody else makes mistakes. And so far, his mistakes haven’t turned out to be significant.

Whether the Harvey decision was a mistake or not certainly remains to be seen. But that it was reasonable is obvious.
Regarding Martin and the gang, if they’re going to come off eventually, it doesn’t really matter when.

WTH are you talking about?  Jesus Aguilar had EIGHT errors last season, and that was at first base.  He makes tons of mistakes.  You might need to watch some more games before you start making those types of claims.

[Just Regular]

15 hours ago, UMDTerrapins said:

Side note.....Mark Polishuk of MLB Trade Rumors said this in a live chat tonight: Mullins would cost the Marlins two of Meyer/Cabrera/Sixto, in my view.  And more. I like Mullins a lot and I'm not trying to get rid of him. And that was also pure speculation. But I'd jump all over that trade. With the organizational depth we have in the outfield, adding two very impressive major league ready starter prospects could give our rebuild a quicker return to winning baseball. Meyer, Cabrera, Sanchez stat links for reference. 

Edit: later in the chat, a NY fan asked whether the O's would listen to an offer from Yankees for Volpe: The O's would definitely listen, sure.  They'd want a top-flight prospect back in any Mullins deal, and Volpe would fit the bill. Volpe stats for reference. 

ESPN Passan...I noted this in his offseason kickoff piece.   It is probably mostly a Buxton nod, though I feel a little like if the buzz among insiders was limited to that, he might have picked a singular predicate:

Who are some names fans might be forgetting about in this year's free-agent class?

Taylor was outstanding for the Dodgers in October, his 1.202 OPS second only behind Kiké Hernandez's 1.260. He's potentially in line for a Ben Zobrist-type deal.

Starling Marte is the best center fielder available, though there will be some good ones to get in trades, too.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/32550708/passan-answers-20-burning-mlb-offseason-questions-there-lockout-stars-sign

 

[NCRaven]

17 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Nope..but so what?  Does that mean, for every decision, we are supposed to say, well he is the Gm and he knows everything, therefore it’s a great move? 

I didn’t say that.  But you said “given the information that we have…” 

My only point is that we almost always have less information than Elias.

And just because you, or I, disagree with a decision doesn’t mean it’s stupid.  I actually agree with you in that I wouldn’t have done it either.

[Sports Guy]

6 hours ago, NCRaven said:

I didn’t say that.  But you said “given the information that we have…” 

My only point is that we almost always have less information than Elias.

And just because you, or I, disagree with a decision doesn’t mean it’s stupid.  I actually agree with you in that I wouldn’t have done it either.

Outside of something off the field that is really bad, there is no excuse.

Lets say that he is poor at preparation and that is a reason he has been hurt. Let’s say his attitude towards things like that isn’t good.  
 

Do you cut him over that?  I mean, if that’s the case, it’s not like that would have just started happening now.  That is something that the organization would have been dealing with for a while now.  So now you decide to cut him?  Why?  And why now?  Why not wait just to be sure that you have his spot covered?

I don’t particularly that Elias has “more info than us”.  That is largely irrelevant to my point because not once have I said you can’t cut him.  Not once have I said, he should be guaranteed a spot on the team and cutting him is an awful decision in terms of talent or something like that.

My issue is the timing.  It’s not a necessary move right now.  Unless Harvey just got caught doing something off the field and was immediately cut for that, there is no reasoning for me to say this was the correct decision.

[wildcard]

29 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Outside of something off the field that is really bad, there is no excuse.

Lets say that he is poor at preparation and that is a reason he has been hurt. Let’s say his attitude towards things like that isn’t good.  
 

Do you cut him over that?  I mean, if that’s the case, it’s not like that would have just started happening now.  That is something that the organization would have been dealing with for a while now.  So now you decide to cut him?  Why?  And why now?  Why not wait just to be sure that you have his spot covered?

 

Why?  Interloper did the math.   

Add players for the 60 day IL gets the team to 31.

Add 7 minor leaguers gets the team to 38.

Add 2 Rule 5 guys because the O's are pick first  40.

Over the off season Elias will hopefully add a  5 more SP,  2 RP, IF, BUC that's 45.

By opening day hopefully the O's add Adley and Grayson. That 47.

So there are 7 more to come off the 40 man roster.   Whether Hunter was taken off now to sometime doing the winter he was probably gone this off season. 

Hopefully Elias is making moves to win.  Not just accumulate talent in the organization.   That means he needs the players on the 40 man roster to be productive.   That is why Hunter needed to go.  Elias could not count on him.

[Sports Guy]

23 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Why?  Interloper did the math.   

Add players for the 60 day IL gets the team to 31.

Add 7 minor leaguers gets the team to 38.

Add 2 Rule 5 guys because the O's are pick first  40.

Over the off season Elias will hopefully add a  5 more SP,  2 RP, IF, BUC that's 45.

By opening day hopefully the O's add Adley and Grayson. That 47.

So there are 7 more to come off the 40 man roster.   Whether Hunter was taken off now to sometime doing the winter he was probably gone this off season. 

Hopefully Elias is making moves to win.  Not just accumulate talent in the organization.   That means he needs the players on the 40 man roster to be productive.   That is why Hunter needed to go.  Elias could not count on him.

Well first of all, we don’t know that they will add 2 rule 5 guys or the players you mentioned.  I’m also skeptical they add 7 players to the 40 man although I agree that it’s possible.

But yes, it matters when you do it.  What if, while working out, Dillon Tate blows out his knee in 2 weeks and is done for the 2022 season.

Plus, a lockout is likely happening, so offseason moves will be suspended.  We don’t know what the Os will be able to make all those moves or if the guys they add have to go onto the 40 man roster immediately.  

Too many unknowns to make the move right now..especially when there are players on the 40 man who should be cut first.

[wildcard]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Well first of all, we don’t know that they will add 2 rule 5 guys or the players you mentioned.  I’m also skeptical they add 7 players to the 40 man although I agree that it’s possible.

But yes, it matters when you do it.  What if, while working out, Dillon Tate blows out his knee in 2 weeks and is done for the 2022 season.

Plus, a lockout is likely happening, so offseason moves will be suspended.  We don’t know what the Os will be able to make all those moves or if the guys they add have to go onto the 40 man roster immediately.  

Too many unknowns to make the move right now..especially when there are players on the 40 man who should be cut first.

I am pretty sure Hunter's 10 inning per year is not a replacement for Tate getting injured.    Hunter was going to go.   Whether its now or later.   

But don't let logic interpret your rant.  Carry on.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I am pretty sure Hunter's 10 inning per year is not a replacement for Tate getting injured.    Hunter was going to go.   Whether its now or later.   

But don't let logic interpret your rant.  Carry on.

Logic?  You know what that means?  Could have fooled me.

[Aristotelian]

Another poster suggested the timing may have been because they thought they had a higher chance of passing Harvey through last week. Just because he was DFA first doesn't necessarily mean they think the lowest of him. I don't really care about the timing as much as the chance we may have given up early on a talented player. Hopefully we will get an explanation at some point.

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Another poster suggested the timing may have been because they thought they had a higher chance of passing Harvey through last week. Just because he was DFA first doesn't necessarily mean they think the lowest of him. I don't really care about the timing as much as the chance we may have given up early on a talented player. Hopefully we will get an explanation at some point.

I don’t think that logic makes sense.  It would actually be easier to pass him through as teams load up their rosters.  Right now, teams are getting rid of the cannon fodder and it’s not difficult to replace that.  But in 4-8 weeks (or whatever the equivalent to that if there is a stoppage), teams will have started to load up their 26 and 40 man rosters with guys they want and may not have the room to take a flyer on someone.

You can come up with reasoning on both sides of this.  Bottom line is there isn’t any reason to make this move now and seeing how Elias has failed as a ML GM thus far, I don’t see any reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as of yet.  That certainly can change and he has been fantastic in other aspects but the ML team is a joke, most of his acquisitions have been failures (on the ML level) and he hasn’t shown any ability to build a BP.

[Aristotelian]

15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think that logic makes sense.  It would actually be easier to pass him through as teams load up their rosters.  Right now, teams are getting rid of the cannon fodder and it’s not difficult to replace that.  But in 4-8 weeks (or whatever the equivalent to that if there is a stoppage), teams will have started to load up their 26 and 40 man rosters with guys they want and may not have the room to take a flyer on someone.

You can come up with reasoning on both sides of this.  Bottom line is there isn’t any reason to make this move now and seeing how Elias has failed as a ML GM thus far, I don’t see any reason to give him the benefit of the doubt as of yet.  That certainly can change and he has been fantastic in other aspects but the ML team is a joke, most of his acquisitions have been failures (on the ML level) and he hasn’t shown any ability to build a BP.

Elias has not failed at anything. It is true he has not produced a winning team but I don't think that was ever the expectation on the payroll he has and the strategy he is implementing. He has made one or two poor decisions at the MLB level (Pop) but also found some potential talent (Urias, Mateo, sticking with Mullins). Moreover you cannot say he has failed at the MLB level and simply ignore what has happened with the minors. See what happens as we start to see actual prospects. 

I agree Harvey DFA is a mystifying decision and I am waiting for the explanation. I am guessing it was not just about the guy's talent. But I am not going to assume it fits a predetermined narrative 

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Elias has not failed at anything. It is true he has not produced a winning team but I don't think that was ever the expectation on the payroll he has and the strategy he is implementing. He has made one or two poor decisions at the MLB level (Pop) but also found some potential talent (Urias, Mateo, sticking with Mullins). Moreover you cannot say he has failed at the MLB level and simply ignore what has happened with the minors. See what happens as we start to see actual prospects. 

I agree Harvey DFA is a mystifying decision and I am waiting for the explanation. I am guessing it was not just about the guy's talent. But I am not going to assume it fits a predetermined narrative 

He absolutely has failed.  The ML team has gotten worse, pitching development in the majors has been poor and he has struggled to bring in guys that could be long term pieces.  
 

There is a thread about the things Duq did when he first got here.  None of them on their own were splashy moves but they worked.  He found those cheap pieces working for a cheap team.  Elias may have found a few things like that but that is hardly a given at this point.  Not enough of a sample size to know.

I didnt expect the team to be a contender but they should be better than the team vying for the #1 pick 3 years later.

And again, I’m strictly talking about his track record as a GM in terms of the ML team.  We all agree what he is doing in other areas is great and has been needed forever.  
 

[Jammer7]

This reminds me of the threads about the non-tender of Hanser Alberto and Renato Nunez. Two slightly below replacement level players who were lovable losers in orange and black. Some skills, no upside, and not major league starters. Some on the board called these moves “stupid” and ranted about it making no sense. They played part-time roles for KC and Detroit in 2021, and for much less money than they would have made in arbitration.

Now, the Zach Pop decision was a mistake, and I said so at the time. Other than that, I guess, because of the way it turned out, we can say he made a mistake in trading Mike Yastrzemski too. At the time, it was what it was and Yaz came out of nowhere for SF. Good on him! He was a good platoon guy this year on a very good team. 

Of course every GM makes mistakes. They gather all of the info and make the best decision for their organization. Without knowing what Mike Elias knows, critics will say what they want. I have laid out why I think it happened, and why it happened now. Others will be traded or released, sure. Does it matter when? Not really, but there are certain times when you have a better chance to slip guys through. I believe they would have liked to have kept Hunter, and almost got him through.

Last thought on this for me is that we also do not know what Elias has in store for acquisitions in 2022. I would say he knows how to build a bullpen, thus all of the relievers traded since 2019. They were simply over-worked. What he has yet to do is build a viable starting rotation. If he fails to make some meaningful acquisitions this offseason, I will be critical of him for that. I get running the young starters out there last year for the purposes of evaluation, but the training wheels are off. This season counts for me. This is when I begin to hold Elias accountable for building a major league roster. 

[Aristotelian]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He absolutely has failed.  The ML team has gotten worse, pitching development in the majors has been poor and he has struggled to bring in guys that could be long term pieces.  
 

There is a thread about the things Duq did when he first got here.  None of them on their own were splashy moves but they worked.  He found those cheap pieces working for a cheap team.  Elias may have found a few things like that but that is hardly a given at this point.  Not enough of a sample size to know.

I didnt expect the team to be a contender but they should be better than the team vying for the #1 pick 3 years later.

And again, I’m strictly talking about his track record as a GM in terms of the ML team.  We all agree what he is doing in other areas is great and has been needed forever.  
 

What are your metrics of success for the MLB team? Some of the things I am looking for:

-Payroll flexibility/lack of long term binding contracts. Give Elias an A+ here. 

-Find undervalued talent from other teams who can be future contributors. We've acquired Tyler Wells, Urias, Mateo. Lost Pop. Elias gets a B here.

-Continue developing MLB ready prospects who can be the next core. Pitchers have not done well overall but Mullins, Hays, Means, and Mountcastle have all continued progression. I would give maybe a B- here. 

-Free agency acquisitions to play decently competitive MLB baseball and flip for prospects. Iglesias and Galvis had successful seasons for their price. Milone was pretty good and got himself traded. Could have done better than Franco/Ruiz. I would give Elias a B here. 

Overall, I would give Elias a solid B to B+ for management of the MLB team relative to any relevant metrics at this point in the rebuild. 

 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

What are your metrics of success for the MLB team? Some of the things I am looking for:

-Payroll flexibility/lack of long term binding contracts. Give Elias an A+ here. 

-Find undervalued talent from other teams who can be future contributors. We've acquired Tyler Wells, Urias, Mateo. Lost Pop. Elias gets a B here.

-Continue developing MLB ready prospects who can be the next core. Pitchers have not done well overall but Mullins, Hays, Means, and Mountcastle have all continued progression. I would give maybe a B- here. 

-Free agency acquisitions to play decently competitive MLB baseball and flip for prospects. Iglesias and Galvis had successful seasons for their price. Milone was pretty good and got himself traded. Could have done better than Franco/Ruiz. I would give Elias a B here. 

Overall, I would give Elias a solid B to B+ for management of the MLB team relative to any relevant metrics at this point in the rebuild. 

 

Winning, talent acquisition, players improving at this level.

You first point is meaningless until the team starts to do something with that flexibility and a lot of what he took on money wise would be off the books by now anyway.  Yes he hasn’t signed anyone but he also hasn’t been allowed.  
 

You keep talking about Mateo as if he’s anything.  He has proven nothing yet.  He looks the part in some ways but he isn’t any kind of a commodity yet.  Wells and Urias could be good pieces but again, the sample size is small.  But he has failed at most of what he has brought in.

Mullins has done well…I think you are teaching on the other guys.  Elias doesn’t really deserve much of the credit for some of them.  
 

A B grade for his FA acquisitions is pretty funny but whatever. 
 

That’s a very generous assessment based on SSS and an overrating of certain guys.