I'm already over this offseason.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

Fair enough. 

Do you think Elias is rebuilding the way he's doing this because of a lack of money from ownership or do you think he's doing it this way because he thinks this is the best way to rebuild to become a perennial winner?

I think the base model is something that he believes in but his approach is limited by the resources allowed him.

In other words I think he may have deviated from the current path at some point if more resources were available.

[sportsfan8703]

I like that Elias is improving the 40 man brick by brick. We might not be locked into the failed SP group too much longer. However, the last major group of bricks that need to be added is SP. if the CBA stays the same for service time then we’re looking at having GR and Hall both from 6/22 - 10/28. We definitely need depth around them. 

[owknows]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think the base model is something that he believes in but his approach is limited by the resources allowed him.

In other words I think he may have deviated from the current path at some point if more resources were available.

This may be a mind-blower... but I'm going to ask you to consider the possibility that the current level of frugality and spending discipline is under the guidance and direction of baseball people (namely Elias) and not ownership (namely the Brothers Grim).

And that perhaps ownership (having assumed control of an overspent and over-reaching franchise) sought out baseball people who could implement a sustainable Tampa Model club. And have therefore followed the guidance of their baseball people patiently and dutifully... expecting reward for their patience in the near future.

And that both ownership and baseball management are in agreement as to the current goals... and that they (like us) are suffering the pain of enduring the dark times... knowing that they are soon to be turning the corner.

I have suspected for the last several years that this was so...  and have as a result expected to see things begin to unfold in this coming season, and the next... to show whether this assessment is true, or is false.

Maybe I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, and the club ownership are stingy tightwads.

Or maybe you're a jaded pessimist, and the club ownership are letting the baseball people be baseball people

Time will reveal the answer shortly.

In the meantime... enjoy the ride.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, owknows said:

This may be a mind-blower... but I'm going to ask you to consider the possibility that the current level of frugality and spending discipline is under the guidance and direction of baseball people (namely Elias) and not ownership (namely the Brothers Grim).

And that perhaps ownership (having assumed control of an overspent and over-reaching franchise) sought out baseball people who could implement a sustainable Tampa Model club. And have therefore followed the guidance of their baseball people patiently and dutifully... expecting reward for their patience in the near future.

And that both ownership and baseball management are in agreement as to the current goals... and that they (like us) are suffering the pain of enduring the dark times... knowing that they are soon to be turning the corner.

I have suspected for the last several years that this was so...  and have as a result expected to see things begin to unfold in this coming season, and the next... to show whether this assessment is true, or is false.

Maybe I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, and the club ownership are stingy tightwads.

Or maybe you're a jaded pessimist, and the club ownership are letting the baseball people be baseball people

Time will reveal the answer shortly.

In the meantime... enjoy the ride.

I don't see baseball people getting rid of coaches because of money that owners were willing to spend.  I don't see baseball people getting rid of announcers because of money that owners were willing to spend.  I don't see baseball people asking arbitration eligible players to defer compensation if ownership was willing to spend.

If you would like to theorize on why the Orioles would ask Mancini and Santander to defer compensation if money wasn't an issue I'd love to listen.

[owknows]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't see baseball people getting rid of coaches because of money that owners were willing to spend.  I don't see baseball people getting rid of announcers because of money that owners were willing to spend.  I don't see baseball people asking arbitration eligible players to defer compensation if ownership was willing to spend.

If you would like to theorize on why the Orioles would ask Mancini and Santander to defer compensation if money wasn't an issue I'd love to listen.

I didn't say money wasn't an issue.

Or that ownership was "makin it rain" with the cash.

I said that it is possible that baseball people were the instruments of discipline regarding free agent spending at the moment. And that ownership was following the guidance that they paid those baseball people to provide.

And that if true, we would expect this to change for the better when it made sense for baseball.

And if false, we would not expect it to change at all.

And that we will shortly know the answer.

You can point to wholesale changes in coaching staff or air talent or the like, and say ownership is stingy.

but to do so, you'd have to willfully ignore the fact that at the same time they have built a Latin American Baseball complex that cost 10X what they might have save with those changes.

You view all of these events through the lens of "stingy money-grubbing ownership"... and can see no other possibility. But there are other possibilities....

And events in the near future will tell us which vision is true.

[HowAboutThat]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

Mountcastle has more value because he has five years of service time remaining, to Mancini’s one.   In a year Mancini will be a free agent, so what’s the logic in trading Mountcastle and then having no 1B/DH when Mancini is a free agent a year from now?

I think people are underselling Mancini a little bit.   I think he will hit better in 2022.   There’s plenty of value in a 1B/DH if he can put up an .850 OPS or so.   And I think he will.  

The thing is that you can trade MC for more than Mancini at this time, and probably forever. Cancer casts a pall over everything.

if we trade MC, we get whatever return he brings, Mancini can be full time 1B, and by the time hes too expensive to keep, someone else will be available.

They are similar players, and MC has more value and would bring more at this time. Mancini has little value(Big C, remember) so we might as well keep him for now.

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, forphase1 said:

It's not so much the top pick, but the overall pool numbers we get from the higher draft selections.  Some of our most interesting prospects are overslot guys like Mayo.  Without sufficient pool to spend is doubtful we have him. 

 

Yes,  the Cardinals and Dodgers and others do a great job of finding value later in the draft and we will get to that point too, I hope, once we have talent at the MLB level. 

I do agree about 2023 being the year expectations for a playoff push need to happen.  Just not sure we need to make deals like the one here everyone is complaining about to help accomplish that goal. 

Again this is wrong.  Any team could have signed Mayo if they wanted to.  It happens every year for every team.  

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, owknows said:

I think we share the same goals. To be sustainably better.

An upgrade now makes fans feel a little better for a season.

An upgrade when we enter the sweet spot could make the difference between sustainability or not.

Most of the dichotomy in opinion in the fan base comes from being tired of the pain of losing.

An upgrade now, even if it fails, has no bearing on the sustainability of anything and if it does, the rebuild is a failure anyway.

[Sports Guy]

2 hours ago, owknows said:

This may be a mind-blower... but I'm going to ask you to consider the possibility that the current level of frugality and spending discipline is under the guidance and direction of baseball people (namely Elias) and not ownership (namely the Brothers Grim).

And that perhaps ownership (having assumed control of an overspent and over-reaching franchise) sought out baseball people who could implement a sustainable Tampa Model club. And have therefore followed the guidance of their baseball people patiently and dutifully... expecting reward for their patience in the near future.

And that both ownership and baseball management are in agreement as to the current goals... and that they (like us) are suffering the pain of enduring the dark times... knowing that they are soon to be turning the corner.

I have suspected for the last several years that this was so...  and have as a result expected to see things begin to unfold in this coming season, and the next... to show whether this assessment is true, or is false.

Maybe I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, and the club ownership are stingy tightwads.

Or maybe you're a jaded pessimist, and the club ownership are letting the baseball people be baseball people

Time will reveal the answer shortly.

In the meantime... enjoy the ride.

Before Elias was ever interviewed, the Orioles made several trades in 2018 and every one of those trades prioritized saving money over getting the best return possible.  
 

So no, it’s the brothers.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, owknows said:

I didn't say money wasn't an issue.

Or that ownership was "makin it rain" with the cash.

I said that it is possible that baseball people were the instruments of discipline regarding free agent spending at the moment. And that ownership was following the guidance that they paid those baseball people to provide.

And that if true, we would expect this to change for the better when it made sense for baseball.

And if false, we would not expect it to change at all.

And that we will shortly know the answer.

You can point to wholesale changes in coaching staff or air talent or the like, and say ownership is stingy.

but to do so, you'd have to willfully ignore the fact that at the same time they have built a Latin American Baseball complex that cost 10X what they might have save with those changes.

You view all of these events through the lens of "stingy money-grubbing ownership"... and can see no other possibility. But there are other possibilities....

And events in the near future will tell us which vision is true.

How much do you think it costs to build that complex in a foreign country?  Those things are pennies to them and in the grand scheme of things.

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Again this is wrong.  Any team could have signed Mayo if they wanted to.  It happens every year for every team.  

The Dodgers third round pick was slotted to get paid 577k.

They signed him for just under 1.3M.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.truebluela.com/platform/amp/mlb-draft/2021/7/25/22593198/dodgers-mlb-draft-peter-heubeck-contract-third-round

How did they ever do this without drafting in the top 5!?!?!??  Btw, they signed their first round pick for only 200k under slot.

[owknows]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Before Elias was ever interviewed, the Orioles made several trades in 2018 and every one of those trades prioritized saving money over getting the best return possible.  
 

So no, it’s the brothers.

The same brothers that made Mike Elias the highest paid first year exec in MLB history?

 

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, owknows said:

The same brothers that made Mike Elias the highest paid first year exec in MLB history?

 

Yea…because they knew that he could and would carry out what they want..build a farm system very well, put the pennies into that needed and now worry about spending at the ML level.  
 

Elias is the perfect GM for them and again, his salary is pennies.  
 

The brothers are doing what their dad did.  If they can win THEIR way, they are fine.  But other than that, they don’t care.

[owknows]

22 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

How much do you think it costs to build that complex in a foreign country?  Those things are pennies to them and in the grand scheme of things.

Tens of millions of dollars.

It's a 22 acre complex. Multiple fields. Dorms to house 100 players and staff. Training rooms. Classrooms. Underground pitching tunnels and batting cages.

Certainly not pennies.

Tens of millions of dollars.

Money Spent.

Just not spent in accordance with your likes. And it doesn't fit your narrative. So you have to dismiss it

[Sports Guy]

Just now, owknows said:

Tens of millions of dollars.

It's a 22 acre complex. Multiple fields. Dorms to house 100 players and staff. Training rooms. Classrooms. Underground pitching tunnels and batting cages.

Certainly not pennies.

Tens of millions of dollars.

Money Spent.

Just not spent in accordance with your likes. And it doesn't fit your narrative. So you have to dismiss it

Lol

Of course I want to see it.

But you clearly have no idea of finances and what these guys are bringing in if you consider that money spent to be anything for them.  It’s a drop in the bucket.