Turgeon exits

[Sports Guy]

41 minutes ago, Pickles said:

That's a pretty broad brush to paint an entire generation.

I just laid out all the reasons that makes UMD such an attractive job.  Seems like you're the one not paying attention.

Gary Williams had MD as a top 10 program for over a decade.  It can surely be done again.

I read them..but a lot of them don’t matter and/or don’t provide the advantage it used to.  

[Tony-OH]

5 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure, it’s a top 20 opening..I mean, how many jobs are available?  It’s probably #1 in terms of a job opening.…but it’s not an overall top 20 job And a lot of the Terps fan base believes it is.

Some of those advantages you talk about don’t matter as much anymore.  A lot of smaller schools have become better programs.  A lot of schools have built great facilities.  With social media nowadays, recruiting is different than it used to be and it’s not like MD did some bang up job recruiting in this area anyway.

I also agree that Turg’s style hurt them but let’s face it, it’s just not exciting to be in B10 basketball (it’s a great conference but a lot of styles are blah) and it’s demoralizing to be in B10 football.

MD fans are still largely obsessed with Duke and pine for the days of being in the ACC.   I miss having them there too.  

 

This. I was always a MD Basketball fan first football fan second even though I like football more. Mostly because I grew up with Len Bias during the glory years of Lefty and then Gary Williams cam in and let them very relevent winning it all with an underdog squad.

I could not be happier that Turgeon is gone as I've been off his bandwagon for a long time. He's an awful in game coach and his offense is stale, boring and basically resides around throwing up threes or letting his star be stars. Losing Wiggens and Morsell should have told Evans he needed to finally push him out the door, but now we have another lost year. 

They need a splashy signing that will invigorate the recruiting and the program. I'll be honest, I tried watching a game or two but found myself disinterested and worse, I really cared less about the VT game where they just looked awful down the stretch. All I kept thinking to myself is more boring Turgeon ball.

Either way, I wish there was some way to go back to the ACC but I doubt that will ever happen. MD football will always be irrelevant in the Big-10 because they will never be able to compete with Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State and Penn State because they have huge packed stadiums every year and compete in major bowls while the Terps end up in Summers Eve Douche Bowl.  And yes, I had to look up a brand of douche!

MD basketball should be good because of the local talent and facilities, but as was mentioned already, the college sports scene has changed with social media, one and done possibilities and the transfer pool. And that's doesn't even take into consideration the "likeness pay" is going to have.

Both programs need big time coaches to ever have a chance but sadly, Evans is not concerned with making money rather than having success in the field/court.

[Sports Guy]

Oh man, there should definitely be a Summers Eve Douche Bowl.  That would be amazing!

[Sports Guy]

Apparently Enfield has some local ties…maybe that’s a big help.

Odom, the coach at UMBC when they beat UvA figures to be on the list too.

[Hallas]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I have said it..the advantages the school used to have just aren’t as big a deal anymore and the gap has been closed by other schools.

I think MD could return to a top 25 job but I don’t think it is one now or even if  it is, it’s not definitive.

The right coach can come in and potentially return the job to a higher status but right now, I don’t think so.

Musselman could leave Arkansas.  Oates could leave.  I’d be surprised if Enfield left.  I’d be very surprised if Pearl left.  He’s not going to get better players at MD than he has gotten at Auburn and MD can’t pay…which is part of why the job isn’t as good.  

I think you're looking at it the wrong way by placing too much emphasis on the current state of the program.  I of course don't think thry are currently a top-25 program.  But Maryland was able to lure away P5 coaches from schools that are on your list for their last 2 coaching hires, including during a time when they were facing NCAA sanctions.  On top of that, they were really close to luring away a coach (Sean Miller) from a program that I had listed as better than us.  That's fact, not theory.  I don't believe for a second that Turgeon's tenure here dropped the desirability of this job down to where we aren't still close to that level, nor do I think that the other schools closed the gap so significantly that we are worse than all of them.

 

Let's look at it another way.  If Iowa lost its coach and were looking for a coach this offseason, would they beat us out in terms of hires?  Would TAMU?   Would Alabama?  Would USC?  With Iowa and TAMU I feel very strongly thay they wouldn't. Especially since we already poached one coach from TAMU.  Alabama?  Maybe depending on how much a coach values environment over Benjamin's, but I also don't think Alabama would pay a coach top dollar unless it's someone like Nate Oats and has proven success with the program.  USC?  Only for someone who wants to be in LA.  FSU?  Absolutely not.  Auburn?  similar to Alabama IMO but maybe more tilted in favor of Auburn.  Arkansas?  Debatable as well.

 

Regardless there are enough schools on this list where I think Maryland comes out clearly ahead in this exercise that I feel comfortable putting this HC position as a top-25 job.

[Pickles]

27 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I read them..but a lot of them don’t matter and/or don’t provide the advantage it used to.  

Being the number one destination by a long shot in an area with top 5 amateur talent still matters.

Being in an attractive major urban area still matters.

Having top notch facilities and fan base still matters.

Leaving the ACC hurt the programs standing.  But there's a reason the school has had such sustained stretches of success in the past.  Even under Turgeon the team was generally a top 25ish team.

If you get fired for being generally top 25ish, that's because people have higher expectations for the program.  And they should.  Because the school has all the advantages to be a top 20 team annually.  

Now, that's not saying this hire will end up well for MD.  They could conceivably get worse.  But that won't be because of the program's potential.

[Pickles]

I'm pretty sure these guys call the Summer Eve's Douche Bowl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=522H44ddePQ

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way by placing too much emphasis on the current state of the program.  I of course don't think thry are currently a top-25 program.  But Maryland was able to lure away P5 coaches from schools that are on your list for their last 2 coaching hires, including during a time when they were facing NCAA sanctions.  On top of that, they were really close to luring away a coach (Sean Miller) from a program that I had listed as better than us.  That's fact, not theory.  I don't believe for a second that Turgeon's tenure here dropped the desirability of this job down to where we aren't still close to that level, nor do I think that the other schools closed the gap so significantly that we are worse than all of them.

 

Let's look at it another way.  If Iowa lost its coach and were looking for a coach this offseason, would they beat us out in terms of hires?  Would TAMU?   Would Alabama?  Would USC?  With Iowa and TAMU I feel very strongly thay they wouldn't. Especially since we already poached one coach from TAMU.  Alabama?  Maybe depending on how much a coach values environment over Benjamin's.  USC?  Only for someone who wants to be in LA.  FSU?  Absolutely not.  Auburn?  similar to Alabama IMO but maybe more tilted in favor of Auburn.  Arkansas?  Debatable as well.

 

Regardless there are enough schools on this list where I think Maryland comes out clearly ahead in this exercise that I feel comfortable putting this HC position as a top-25 job.

First of all, the current state of the program absolutely matters and it matters a hell of a lot more than MDs title in 2002.

Would those schools out hire?  Maybe..money is important and the Terps haven’t had any.

BTw, I meant Texas Tech, not Texas A&M.  Now, we will see what TT does after losing Beard but that’s been a really good program recently.

FSU has been a far better program than MD for a solid 5-10 years.  It’s not close.  They have had several first round picks, highly ranked recruiting classes and lots of tourney success, not to mention being one of the winningest programs in the ACC.

Your last sentence is just wrong.  The idea that you think it’s clear is absurd. They have limited recent success(especially in March), not much national appeal, no money and no real high end picks to point to in the league recently.  
 

Like I said, the right coach can elevate the program back to what you are saying…but as we talk now, as the job is looked at by recruits, etc…it’s not there anymore.  Things can change.

 

[Sports Guy]

25 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Being the number one destination by a long shot in an area with top 5 amateur talent still matters.

Being in an attractive major urban area still matters.

Having top notch facilities and fan base still matters.

Leaving the ACC hurt the programs standing.  But there's a reason the school has had such sustained stretches of success in the past.  Even under Turgeon the team was generally a top 25ish team.

If you get fired for being generally top 25ish, that's because people have higher expectations for the program.  And they should.  Because the school has all the advantages to be a top 20 team annually.  

Now, that's not saying this hire will end up well for MD.  They could conceivably get worse.  But that won't be because of the program's potential.

Those 3 things do matter…but MD is the destination of those local kids.  Recruiting is so different now, especially with the power of social media.  
 

There are tons of attractive urban areas, so that really isn’t much of a factor overall.  It may help vs some Midwest school in podunk but up against a lot of the power 5 teams, not as much.

Lots of schools have top notch facilities.   I mean, look at their recruiting rankings.

They have had 1 top 10 Class in the last decade.  They had more classes ranked outside the top 35 than inside the top 20.  
 

Had you asked me 5+ years ago, I would have agreed it was a top 25 job.  It’s just not the case anymore.  

[mhd24]

6 hours ago, waroriole said:

Maryland seems like the cautionary tale for why the grass isn’t always greener. They might get a bigger check from the Big 10, but their sports seem irrelevant now. The rivalry they had with Duke before leaving, was approaching the Duke/UNC rivalry. Even if they get good again, it’s hard to generate that excitement level. 
 

I think Oklahoma, and to a lesser extent Texas, are about to find that out soon. 

The ACC that everyone loved is dead.  The old 9 team conference with true round-robin died long before Maryland left.  The ACC thought so much of Maryland that they decided Pitt was going to be its natural rival and wasn't going to ensure any annual home and homes with UNC, Duke, State, UVA, etc..  It was the last straw from a conference that never cared about Maryland.

The move to the Big Ten has been great from an academic sense (look at the expansion of the engineering program), and the basketball has been fine (I'd argue that the BIG 10 has been deeper consistently than the ACC since Maryland left).  

 

[Pickles]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Those 3 things do matter…but MD is the destination of those local kids.  Recruiting is so different now, especially with the power of social media.  
 

There are tons of attractive urban areas, so that really isn’t much of a factor overall.  It may help vs some Midwest school in podunk but up against a lot of the power 5 teams, not as much.

Lots of schools have top notch facilities.   I mean, look at their recruiting rankings.

They have had 1 top 10 Class in the last decade.  They had more classes ranked outside the top 35 than inside the top 20.  
 

Had you asked me 5+ years ago, I would have agreed it was a top 25 job.  It’s just not the case anymore.  

Well, agree to disagree.

 

[Hallas]

49 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

First of all, the current state of the program absolutely matters and it matters a hell of a lot more than MDs title in 2002.

Would those schools out hire?  Maybe..money is important and the Terps haven’t had any.

BTw, I meant Texas Tech, not Texas A&M.  Now, we will see what TT does after losing Beard but that’s been a really good program recently.

FSU has been a far better program than MD for a solid 5-10 years.  It’s not close.  They have had several first round picks, highly ranked recruiting classes and lots of tourney success, not to mention being one of the winningest programs in the ACC.

Your last sentence is just wrong.  The idea that you think it’s clear is absurd. They have limited recent success(especially in March), not much national appeal, no money and no real high end picks to point to in the league recently.  
 

Like I said, the right coach can elevate the program back to what you are saying…but as we talk now, as the job is looked at by recruits, etc…it’s not there anymore.  Things can change.

 

Recent NBA picks don't matter that much to an incoming coach.  They're attributed to the coach that they worked under, not the school IMO.

 

Texas Tech... their athletic budget is 2/3 of Maryland's and theyre in the red according to publicly available data.  Compare that to Maryland, 5 million in the black. They cannot outbid Maryland and don't have as many built in recruiting advantages.  And they've already proven that they can't necessarily keep a successful coach, or replace said departure with a splashy hire.

 

FSU... ehh.  It's a football school, they have older facilities, a $30 million deficit in the athletic department, and if Hamilton leaves/retires I really don't think they're beating Maryland for a job.  I 100% agree that they have been more successful recently.  But no championships, and their only f4 was in the 70s.  Not exactly a powerhouse history.

 

And as I said, other analysts like Jeff Goodman, Rob dauster, John Fanta, Matt Norlander, Jon Rothstein have gone on record saying his is anywhere from a top-15 to top-25 HC position.  And those guys are not affiliated with Maryland.

 

Edit to add:  how many years of suck does it take for a school to drop off the face of the earth?  Indiana and UCLA haven't, and Indiana especially has been a hot mess for God knows how long.  The potential matters a lot. And I agree that Maryland fans are a bit delusional at times, but that (possibly delusional) expectation of greatness is also part of what drives the potential of the school.  And that potential is proven, not hypothetical.

[Sports Guy]

32 minutes ago, Hallas said:

Recent NBA picks don't matter that much to an incoming coach.  They're attributed to the coach that they worked under, not the school IMO.

 

Texas Tech... their athletic budget is 2/3 of Maryland's and theyre in the red according to publicly available data.  Compare that to Maryland, 5 million in the black. They cannot outbid Maryland and don't have as many built in recruiting advantages.  And they've already proven that they can't necessarily keep a successful coach, or replace said departure with a splashy hire.

 

FSU... ehh.  It's a football school, they have older facilities, a $30 million deficit in the athletic department, and if Hamilton leaves/retires I really don't think they're beating Maryland for a job.  I 100% agree that they have been more successful recently.  But no championships, and their only f4 was in the 70s.  Not exactly a powerhouse history.

 

And as I said, other analysts like Jeff Goodman, Rob dauster, John Fanta, Matt Norlander, Jon Rothstein have gone on record saying his is anywhere from a top-15 to top-25 HC position.  And those guys are not affiliated with Maryland.

 

Edit to add:  how many years of suck does it take for a school to drop off the face of the earth?  Indiana and UCLA haven't, and Indiana especially has been a hot mess for God knows how long.  The potential matters a lot. And I agree that Maryland fans are a bit delusional at times, but that (possibly delusional) expectation of greatness is also part of what drives the potential of the school.  And that potential is proven, not hypothetical.

1). NBA talent matters to recruits.  Good recruits generally mean wins.  If you don’t win, your program isn’t as relevant.

2). Again, the history doesn’t mean anything.   No players nowadays care about MD being relevant in the late 90s/early 2000s or how good they were in the early to mid 70s.  Recent history definitely matters but 20+ years ago is pretty irrelevant to them, as it should be btw.

3) Hamilton may be driving that program but the bottom line is they are a way better program than MD right now.   
 

4) TT has a lot of recent success.  Maybe it will all go away with Beard gone..that’s certainly possible.  MD hasn’t come close to their success in recent years though.

[Hallas]

40 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

1). NBA talent matters to recruits.  Good recruits generally mean wins.  If you don’t win, your program isn’t as relevant.

2). Again, the history doesn’t mean anything.   No players nowadays care about MD being relevant in the late 90s/early 2000s or how good they were in the early to mid 70s.  Recent history definitely matters but 20+ years ago is pretty irrelevant to them, as it should be btw.

3) Hamilton may be driving that program but the bottom line is they are a way better program than MD right now.   
 

4) TT has a lot of recent success.  Maybe it will all go away with Beard gone..that’s certainly possible.  MD hasn’t come close to their success in recent years though.

Again, were not judging state of the program..  If TT were a clearly better HC job then they would have been able to make a splashy hire after Beard left, or they would have been able to convince Beard to stay.  They did neither of those things. If FSU were a clearly better HC job then you should be able to say definitively that if Hamilton retired, the Terps wouldn't be able to beat out FSU.  I'd argue that right now the Terps would definitively beat out both schools.  Same applies to Iowa.  And I think this is evident in these schools' hiring history.  These schools have not shown an ability to lure away other P5 coaches.

 

I'll probably leave it at this - my opinion here is driven by what I've read from others, and I don't think homerism is really affecting my opinion here much. Regardless, I don't think any of it is going to change your opinion, so we'll agree to disagree.

 

For what it's worth, I'll admit you're right if Maryland strikes out on everyone and is forced to make a weak hire.

[Hallas]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Those 3 things do matter…but MD is the destination of those local kids.  Recruiting is so different now, especially with the power of social media.  
 

There are tons of attractive urban areas, so that really isn’t much of a factor overall.  It may help vs some Midwest school in podunk but up against a lot of the power 5 teams, not as much.

Lots of schools have top notch facilities.   I mean, look at their recruiting rankings.

They have had 1 top 10 Class in the last decade.  They had more classes ranked outside the top 35 than inside the top 20.  
 

Had you asked me 5+ years ago, I would have agreed it was a top 25 job.  It’s just not the case anymore.  

I think that the lack if good classes is on the coach, not the school.  I don't think a school can fall that fast from being a top tier HC destination unless there is some major scandal involved, or unless you can show me that a large number of schools that leapfrogged them have demonstrably been able to overcome the infrastructure gap (e.g. brand new facilities, etc.)  I would call Duke a top job even if both Scheyer amd the coach that follows him bombed and they weren't elite for 20 years, especially if they were still semi decent.  UNC was still a strong enough program to poach a coach from another blue blood after 5+ years of being mediocre.  It was only 2 years ago that they had a pretty good squad that had a chance to make some noise but for covid.

And considering a large percentage of p5 schools are Midwest football-first schools in podunk, I think that being in an urban area with a lot of basketball talent is a relevant advantage.