Infield batting, besides 1B

[interloper]

1 hour ago, Ohfan67 said:

Between Baltimore and the minors, Martin has between 700-800 plate appearances as an Oriole. He’s 27.5 years old. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of mystery left for the Orioles to decipher. 

People keep citing his age and choosing to forget that he was injured for about a year and has totally reworked his swing. He's a different player than the Rule 5 AA guy we threw into the big leagues without a life preserver. 

[spiritof66]

1 hour ago, Ohfan67 said:

Between Baltimore and the minors, Martin has between 700-800 plate appearances as an Oriole. He’s 27.5 years old. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of mystery left for the Orioles to decipher. 

But his hitting has improved quite a bit. Can he maintain that higher level? Can he improve even further? I'd like to know the answers.

[Just Regular]

Mateo will enter Arb next year, if he is tendered.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 hours ago, Just Regular said:

Mateo will enter Arb next year, if he is tendered.

Elias when he calculates what Mateo will get in arbitration. (I like Mateo's defense and speed, and hope he hits enough to stick around even if he converts to being a utility player.)

[ChuckS]

7 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

We’ll probably see a hockey style line change soon. 3B Gunnar. SS Westburg. 2B Vavra. Mateo to the bench. 

Doubtful.

I’d be surprised if Gunnar and Westburg did not finish the season in Norfolk and the organization is no longer treating Vavra as a second baseman. 

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

11 hours ago, Natty said:

Odor .200

Mateo .199

Nevin .192

Urias .225 (on IL)

So like why did we bring up Martin to sit on the bench? 

 

Amen. Absolutely absurd. Even my dad today said “why in the world aren’t they playing Martin? Odor is painful”

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

10 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Yes, Martin is a bench/utility guy.

Saying that, I have no issue with him playing more at SS and 2B. Mateo was given his chance to be an everyday guy and has shown he's better defensively at SS, but he can't hit. He's probably better suited to be a utility guy as well. 

 

Berlanger never hit. He is an elite glove, I am

fine with him not hitting, he will likely improve but if he doesn’t…still could be a starter. Mateo & Martin much better option. Also Vavra and Arauz came out strong with the bat!

[Explosivo]

Mateo is the prototypical utility infielder. He’s the late inning defensive replacement/pinch runner. McKenna’s role becomes redundant then. If Mateo can be taught how to play left field this off-season, he becomes your clear choice for super utility defensive replacement and we can move up Henderson, Westberg, and Vavra to take over the infield. I am going to miss Odor however. The guy may not be hitting all that consistently but his glove is special and he’s a special clubhouse guy as well.

[sportsfan8703]

The only thing we could do to get more production with our current options would be to add a pinch hitter option to the bench over Bannon. Have the pinch hitter hit for one of Mateo/Martin, and Nevin, in tight situations. Stewart and Nottingham would be our best fits internally. Externally we could claim Matt Davidson off waivers, or sign some milb FA. Cano?

[Frobby]

11 hours ago, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

Berlanger never hit. He is an elite glove, I am

fine with him not hitting, he will likely improve but if he doesn’t…still could be a starter. Mateo & Martin much better option. Also Vavra and Arauz came out strong with the bat!

We are talking about Mateo, right?  I have been very happy with his fielding, but his bat is a big concern.  To date, his 1.3 rWAR indicates that his glove has been sufficient to carry his .551 OPS (58 OPS+) bat, but I don’t believe it’s sustainable.   His rWAR has been declining over the last month or so, as his OPS has plummeted lower and lower.   Simply put, if his bat doesn’t pick up, I think we will see that his rWAR won’t go much higher than it is right now, or may even regress.   By the way, fWAR has him at 0.5, well below average for a starter.   

You point out that Belanger was able to carry a weak bat because he was an elite defender.   Well yes, but to say he was an elite defender is an understatement.   By several metrics, Belanger is one of the top five most valuable defenders of all time, at any position.  He was worth 41.0 rWAR, 34.9 fWAR in his career despite having a 68 OPS+.   Even there, his 68 OPS tops Mateo’s current OPS+ by ten points.   And Mateo is not nearly the defender Belanger was, though he’s certainly been very good.  

Long and short of it is, Mateo will need to hit better to keep his starting job.   I hope his bat does pick up, because I do enjoy his defense.  

 

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, Frobby said:

We are talking about Mateo, right?  I have been very happy with his fielding, but his bat is a big concern.  To date, his 1.3 rWAR indicates that his glove has been sufficient to carry his .551 OPS (58 OPS+) bat, but I don’t believe it’s sustainable.   His rWAR has been declining over the last month or so, as his OPS has plummeted lower and lower.   Simply put, if his bat doesn’t pick up, I think we will see that his rWAR won’t go much higher than it is right now, or may even regress.   By the way, fWAR has him at 0.5, well below average for a starter.   

You point out that Belanger was able to carry a weak bat because he was an elite defender.   Well yes, but to say he was an elite defender is an understatement.   By several metrics, Belanger is one of the top five most valuable defenders of all time, at any position.  He was worth 41.0 rWAR, 34.9 fWAR in his career despite having a 68 OPS+.   Even there, his 68 OPS tops Mateo’s current OPS+ by ten points.   And Mateo is not nearly the defender Belanger was, though he’s certainly been very good.  

Long and short of it is, Mateo will need to hit better to keep his starting job.   I hope his bat does pick up, because I do enjoy his defense.  

 

I think you are a little too wrapped up in the numbers.   I think Elias/Hyde are very impressed with Mateo defense and how it helps the pitching staff.   I think no matter what Mateo hits as long as he continues to show great range and a strong arm he will get the majority of starts at SS.

Looking ahead to next year if the O's add Gunnar, Westburg and Stowers to the offense while losing Mancini and Odor it looks like that offense will score 5 to 6 runs per game on average.   If that happens they will be able to carry Mateo based on his defense.

Elias/Hyde are all about development and I am sure they will continue to try to improve Mateo's offense.

I think Elias is constructing a team not a bunch of individuals that by themselves must hit certain offensive numbers.

[eddie83]

17 hours ago, wildcard said:

It probably makes some sense for Odor to get the majority of at bats at 2B until August 2nd or when he is traded.   Its an effort to see if he can make himself valuable to another team in trade.   

But if he is not traded then there is little to no value in him continuing to get many at bats because he will be a free agent this fall and not part of the O's future.  At that point it makes a lot of sense for those at bats to go to Vavra to find out if he is  a  part of the O's future.

I would think Urias gets the majority of at bats at 3B once he is healthy.   He may or may not be part of the O's future.

On Mateo I go with the Weaver theory that you judge a player on what he can do not on what he can't.  If Mateo is truely outstanding as a defensive SS and the team around him can carry the weight of the offense then maybe he is a piece of the future.

So far I see no one in the O's organization that is close to his ability as a defensive SS.   Challengers will have to outperform him on the basis of their combined offense and defense.

Odor is not going to have any trade value. Is it impossible that someone would want him? No, but you aren’t getting anything for him. 
 

Odor will continue to play until they think the younger player is ready to play. 
 

On this team Mateo should continue to be the main SS because they have no one else. 

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I think you are a little too wrapped up in the numbers.   I think Elias/Hyde are very impressed with Mateo defense and how it helps the pitching staff.   I think no matter what Mateo hits as long as he continues to show great range and a strong arm he will get the majority of starts at SS.

Looking ahead to next year if the O's add Gunnar, Westburg and Stowers to the offense while losing Mancini and Odor it look like that offense will score 5 to 6 runs per game.   If that happens they will be able to carry Mateo based on his defense.

Elias/Hyde are all about development and I am sure they will continue to try to improve Mateo offense.

You think they are going to lead the league in offense next year? 
 

I’m fairly excited for the future and I think the path is there but that is a heck of a leap. 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

I think you are a little too wrapped up in the numbers.   I think Elias/Hyde are very impressed with Mateo defense and how it helps the pitching staff.   I think no matter what Mateo hits as long as he continues to show great range and a strong arm he will get the majority of starts at SS.

Looking ahead to next year if the O's add Gunnar, Westburg and Stowers to the offense while losing Mancini and Odor it look like that offense will score 5 to 6 runs per game.   If that happens they will be able to carry Mateo based on his defense.

Elias/Hyde are all about development and I am sure they will continue to try to improve Mateo offense.

Well, I don’t feel I’m too wrapped up in numbers.   You always have to consider both offense and defense in evaluating a player, and numbers help you do that.  There is always going to be some offensive contribution a player has to make no matter how good his defense is.  The better the defense, the less offense you need, and vice versa.   But there isn’t a player who has ever played the game who would be a starter even if his OPS were .000.    

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

You think they are going to lead the league in offense next year? 
 

I’m fairly excited for the future and I think the path is there but that is a heck of a leap. 

It’s crazy talk.   But I could see us going from below average to above average next year if Westburg and Henderson adjust well and Adley continues to improve.