Eve Rosenbaum on the evolution of the Orioles’ hitting program

[Frobby]

From Fangraphs’ David Laurila:

Eve Rosenbaum was a featured guest on this week’s episode of FanGraphs Audio, and one of the topics I addressed with the Baltimore Orioles assistant general manager was the organization’s hitting-development program. I asked if there have been any directional shifts in terms of which data and training practices are most valued.

“One thing that I really stressed when I was the director of baseball development — which everyone was on board with here — is that we’re constantly learning,” responded Rosenbaum, who was promoted to her current position in June. “We’re constantly adjusting our hitting philosophies based on what we’ve learned. A huge thing we go back and forth on is how we balance power versus contact. The whole league has been working at this.… I was just talking to Koby Perez, our international scouting director, about it, how it impacts players he’s signed, and in the draft.

“At first, we were really focused on, ‘Hey, let’s develop a ton of power,’” continued Rosenbaum. “Then he said, ‘You know what, Eve? With some players, we should focus more on contact.’ But do you know what? Contact is really hard to develop, so maybe let’s roll that back and focus on, ‘How can we draft players that are already going to make a lot of contact, and then we can focus more on developing the power aspect. So, it’s a constant back and forth.”

[wildcard]

Sounds muddled.

[Frobby]

The full interview can be found at this  link.  Here’s a description:

“At the top of the show, David Laurila welcomes Eve Rosenbaum, assistant general manager for the Baltimore Orioles. The former director of baseball development, Rosenbaum shares how her responsibilities have changed in her new role as she puts much more focus on the major league club. We also hear about the Orioles’ player development machine, the details of how waiver wires and DFAs work, how the team is making pitchers better after acquiring them, what they saw in Jorge Mateo, and insight as to why they made so many transactions during this encouraging season. [5:30]”

Sounds interesting.  I haven’t had time to listen to it yet. 

[waroriole]

Makes the Cowser development more understandable. 

[justD]

It's a long interview and she talks really fast.  But I was able to transcribe the first third (10 minutes) tonight.

Note that since I was typing really fast, I didn't use double spaces after periods.  I also was unsure what to capitalize or not, hope it doesn't mess with readability. 

Quote

FanGraphs Audio Podcast Episode 996

David Laurila:     I’m with Eve Rosenbaum, Assistant General Manager for the Baltimore Orioles. Eve, thanks for coming on to FanGraphs Audio.

ER:         Yeah, thanks for having me.

DL:         Let’s start with your current and previous roles with the organization. What are your primary responsibilities as an Assistant GM, and what were they as Director of Baseball Development?

ER:         What I’m spending a lot of my time on now is really focusing on the Major League team and on the day-to-day operations of the Major League team. Obviously we are in the offseason now, since unfortunately we didn’t make the playoffs, but during the season it’s a lot of meeting with the coaches and meeting with [Brandon] Hyde, our manager before and after the game, and just saying “Hey, how did things go, any moves we need to make for tonight, for tomorrow’s game, any injury updates, who should we be optioning, how’s our bullpen doing, do we have enough arms for tomorrow?” And, “Let’s talk about the lineup for tomorrow, facing a lefty or facing a righty, any moves we should make for that?” So that, obviously, during the season…it’s jam packed and there’s constant transactions. So that’s a lot of my focus during the season.

And then during the offseason, it’s more similar to what I’ve been doing in previous offseasons, talking about the moves we need to make – whether it’s trades or signing free agents, picking up options, tendering guys, going to arbitration, focusing on all of that.

So how it’s different from what I’d done previously – when I first came on with the Orioles I was Director of Baseball Development and was still doing a lot of work related to Pro transactions. But obviously with Covid, in particular, when it was really hard to actually be in the office to talk to the players and talk to the coaches, when you’re working from home or only in the office a couple of days a week. So I really focused on that.

Stuff that I was doing as Director of Baseball Development was really focused on building up our digital infrastructure. So I spent a lot of time with our R&D Department, who work under Sig [Megdal], and it was a fairly new department when I first got here in 2019, so I spent a lot of time with them and building out our database and making sure that our database had tools that our Player Development Department could use, that our coaches could use, that our Scouting Departments could use, really everyone in the Front Office, that they had a place they could go and use tools and enter, you know, scouting reports or read their game reports or look at our new projection models. So it was building that out.

And I spent a ton of time – and I do spend a lot of time still – working with our Farm Director, Matt Blood, and our Scouting Directors Koby Perez and Brad Ciolek, just making sure that they have everything that they need, helping them to evaluate players.

So I still do a ton of that, but as we’ve gotten that database built up and have sort of fleshed out our scouting methodologies and our player development methodologies, we’ve really come a long way in those areas over the past few years, which I want to talk about today. I’ve been able to sort of leave some of that work behind as I transition to focus on the Major League team, which is good timing because we’re also focusing on our Major League team now as we’re real good and making a Wildcard push.

DL:         On the subject of not making the Wildcard, the team is of course not in the Postseason, but that said, just how satisfied are you, Mike [Elias], Sig, the entire Front Office, on the 2022 Orioles season?

ER:         Hey, yeah, honestly we were thrilled! It was so much fun to watch, for us, to see the players excelling, to see players exceeding expectations, to see the fans back in the ballpark, just to see everyone walking around Downtown Baltimore wearing their Orioles hats. You know, that was awesome.

Now, with that said, we like to win. So we want to make the Wildcard or win the Division next year, absolutely that’s going to be the goal. And our players want to win, our coaches want to win, so we’re not resting on our laurels or anything like that. We know the pressure’s going to be on for us to compete and to outperform what we did this year, to outperform that next year.

DL:         Would it be accurate, Eve, to say that the organization has transformed itself into a player development machine?

ER:         Yeah, I think we’ve transformed ourselves in a ton of ways -- that’s what Mike and Sig were hired to do when they came in, in 2018, and then they brought me along in 2019, and I was absolutely on board – which was transforming every facet of the organization. So, a huge focus on the past few years has been on player development, and Matt Blood just absolutely overhauled the player development department, hiring new, young coaches, a lot of coaches from Junior Colleges, a lot of coaches who didn’t have previous professional experience, but they were hungry. They were willing to try out new technologies. Throwing batting practice in ways that we hadn’t thrown batting practice before. Doing drills that we hadn’t done before, both on the infield and the outfield. Just really bonding with the players and getting to know each player and getting to learn how each player works, what are their cues, how do they bounce back from adversity, how can we challenge this guy, how can we work with our medical staff and our strength & conditioning staff, and involve them in the player development positions.

So it’s been completely overhauled, a huge new staff. Everyone’s firing on all cylinders, we all work together, it’s very collaborative. Fortunately, we have two of our affiliates – our High-A affiliate and our Double-A affiliate – within driving distance from Baltimore, so we’re able to, I’m able to go out and watch a lot of their games. Matt Blood is able to be in the office here, plugged in with me and Elias and Sig, and then he is able to go and drive around and see the affiliates.

So absolutely, I think we’re a player development powerhouse now.

 

[ShoelesJoe]

Quote

Throwing batting practice in ways that we hadn’t thrown batting practice before. 

I don’t remember if this was mentioned in a previous thread, but can somebody expand on how the coaches throw batting practice in different ways? Do they attempt to mirror the delivery of that night’s opposing starter? 

[Jammer7]

Thanks for sharing that. And thanks to @justD for the transcripts. She seems remarkably heavily involved in the day-to-day operations of the team. Had me wondering what Elias does nowadays.

[justD]

1 hour ago, ShoelesJoe said:

I don’t remember if this was mentioned in a previous thread, but can somebody expand on how the coaches throw batting practice in different ways? Do they attempt to mirror the delivery of that night’s opposing starter? 

Yes, that’s what I recall.  They touted it as innovative at the time it was first discussed, tho several posters debated that it was anything new at all, maybe just new to us. 

[now]

5 hours ago, wildcard said:

Sounds muddled.

Maybe but I think the kernel of it is clear.

It's easier to develop power than to develop contact, so they are choosing to draft for contact and then develop the power.

We saw this pretty clearly with the Cowser-Norby draft and all the good K/BB ratios for that crop of batters. 

[Frobby]

Thanks for transcribing, @justD.   Listening to it, Eve comes off as positive, energetic and extremely intense.  I may have mentioned, she went to high school with my daughter.   

There wasn’t much earth shattering in the interview, but what I got out of it is:

1.  The O’s have decided it’s easier to get a contact hitter to develop power than it is to teach a power hitter to develop contact skills.   So, they’re inclining towards drafting guys who already have contact skills.   But how does that jive with drafting Beavers and Fabian?

2.  The O’s felt that to bring out Mateo’s defensive talent, they needed to put him at one position and let him stick there.   Well OK, but how does that jive with the way Henderson, Westburg and Vavra have been shuttled around?  I certainly got the impression they think they can develop Mateo offensively, but isn’t he a guy with some power but bad contact skills, the skill that’s difficult to teach?
 

[Jim'sKid26]

10 hours ago, Frobby said:

Thanks for transcribing, @justD.   Listening to it, Eve comes off as positive, energetic and extremely intense.  I may have mentioned, she went to high school with my daughter.   

There wasn’t much earth shattering in the interview, but what I got out of it is:

1.  The O’s have decided it’s easier to get a contact hitter to develop power than it is to teach a power hitter to develop contact skills.   So, they’re inclining towards drafting guys who already have contact skills.   But how does that jive with drafting Beavers and Fabian?

2.  The O’s felt that to bring out Mateo’s defensive talent, they needed to put him at one position and let him stick there.   Well OK, but how does that jive with the way Henderson, Westburg and Vavra have been shuttled around?  I certainly got the impression they think they can develop Mateo offensively, but isn’t he a guy with some power but bad contact skills, the skill that’s difficult to teach?
 

Perhaps the organization has matured from, "if you are a hammer everything's a nail," to "it's nice to have a number of tools hanging off my tool belt."

[Ripken]

13 hours ago, ShoelesJoe said:

I don’t remember if this was mentioned in a previous thread, but can somebody expand on how the coaches throw batting practice in different ways? Do they attempt to mirror the delivery of that night’s opposing starter? 

While not a game situation, batting practice still means pitching to a hitter.  You can work guys inside or outside, up or down.  You can throw a variety of pitch types.  You can tell the hitter what pitch type is coming or not tell him.  You can alternate who is throwing BP, so things like left or right handed, arm slot and delivery point are varied.  You can move the L screen up and throw from a shorter distance so speed and break are more similar to a game.  And so on.  There are several ways to differentiate batting practice to focus on specific areas.

[justcompete]

This echoes a lot of what you see in the baseball development world at the you/high school/ collegiate levels.

Pitching side- everyone has a velocity program and velocity in prep/collegiate baseball is higher then ever.  Command of multiple pitches is the hardest component.

Every one wants the barrel to ball skill as the exit velocity can be attacked in the kitchen, weight room and rotational training, especially with over weight/under weight training. 

As a point of reference- Gunnar Henderson's exit velocity topped out at 93 mph 12 months before he has drafted.  

https://www.perfectgame.org/players/playerprofile.aspx?ID=460812

[btdart20]

13 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

Perhaps the organization has matured from, "if you are a hammer everything's a nail," to "it's nice to have a number of tools hanging off my tool belt."

Absolutely.  But there's more to the story.  However, the metrics are incomplete too (at least publicly).  Which is why I really appreciated the humility of constantly learning.  It's good that we have a plan, but it's awesome that we're occasionally testing the foundations we build on.

Here's how I would frame the maturation process:

Pre-2019 - If you're a hammer, everything is a nail.  (Mountcastle)

2019-??? (now?) - Let's look for a hammer can make contact with nails.  We can teach them power.  (Cowser)

Future - What do we do with the screws?  How do we identify/develop the best screwdriver?

All of this is textbook analytics.  Measuring power and distance is relatively easy to get HRs (EV and LA - hit the ball hard at a certain angle).  Those same measures also 'tend' to increase the chances of the ball finding a hole (because it gives the defense less time to get to said hole).  Taken to its extreme, it creates the 'three true outcome' type of hitting approach (i.e. if you're a hammer, everything is a nail).  From a pitching perspective, spin rate and velocity are the key metrics.  Those are the most public metrics that a measurable that lead trend toward better results.  Companies like Driveline Baseball are applying biomechanical technology to see what players are doing to help players use 'best practices' (i.e. the actual swing or pitch motion).  It's relatively easy to see what a player is doing that gives a higher EV or optimizes the LA.  Then they would apply that in some type of "hitting or pitching lab" as they tweak their swing/pitch motion.  Each player would have a goal (gain 2 MPH in pitch velo, 10 MPH in exit velo, or whatever).  Goals are measurable and management can see who's meeting their goals (just like most business environments).

But there are plenty of quality players who are not power hitters who are being missed or not developed to their full potential (or even messed up).  We know hitting is so much more than just hitting the ball hard at a certain angle.  But it's tougher to measure.  It's a "known unknown" (we know it's there but we're not sure exactly what it is).  Until those unknows are clarified, we can target those who already have "it" (contact skills) and teach things like pitch selection and swing decisions.  And increase repetitions that mimic game situations (like BP with MLB-type pitching instead of 75 MPH meatballs).

Guys like Gwynn, Boggs, McNeil (Vavra?) are guys that aren't about hard contact but quality of contact.  They applied the "it" factors to make themselves high BA/OBP guys.  But what exactly do they do?  Are there technology gaps?  How do you measure it?  Once you can measure it, how can it be applied/repeated in the next hitter?  And maybe it can't?  Is it general "athleticism"?  That's the next frontier toward better hitting.  

The other day I posted a Fangraphs article that focused on Jeff McNeil in another thread that talked about how McNeil doesn't fit the mold of the current trends in hitting.

Jeff McNeil Swings Softly, But Carries a Big Stick | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[interloper]

18 hours ago, wildcard said:

Sounds muddled.

Sounds realistic and honest. And scientifically-minded. Constant tweaking, constant adjusting. I've been waiting for this fact-based, evidence-based development in this organization for more than a decade. We finally have smart, credible, improvement-minded people working at development who actually give a shit. They aren't just trying to form everyone into some dumb mold some ancient baseball idiot thought made sense for reasons.