Schoenfeld gives Os offseason a D+

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Hallas said:

This isnt a totally apt comparison, because trading stuff with people is much less of a zero-sum game than trading major league baseball players.

I'm of the mind set that you do more good for yourself and your team by trading in good faith and trying to reach a reasonable agreement than you do trying to "win" and get every possible marginal advantage.  Relationships matter.  Do you want to be known as that GM that is impossible to work with and will try and kill you for one more D level prospect?  If you had a guy you were looking to move you'd call that guy last.

These guys have all their evaluations handy, it isn't like the old days.

[Pickles]

Just now, Frobby said:

I think most trades start with a proposal the other side probably won’t accept because it’s too lopsided.  But it can’t be so lopsided that it doesn’t even start a credible conversation.  

I mean it's such a laughable propisition.

If you can trust the other guy to make a "fair" offer, then what's the point in even negotiating.  Just accept whatever is offerered.  Surely nobody would try to profit at your expense.

Nobody in human history has ever tried to profit at the expense of others.  Never happens.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think most trades start with a proposal the other side probably won’t accept because it’s too lopsided.  But it can’t be so lopsided that it doesn’t even start a credible conversation.  

Sure, you have a starting point. 

I'm not suggesting you make your best offer first and leave yourself no room to outmaneuver and sure if the other side is willing to accept an offer that I think is an overpay I'm not going to save them from themselves.

[Hallas]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm of the mind set that you do more good for yourself and your team by trading in good faith and trying to reach a reasonable agreement than you do trying to "win" and get every possible marginal advantage.  Relationships matter.  Do you want to be known as that GM that is impossible to work with and will try and kill you for one more D level prospect?  If you had a guy you were looking to move you'd call that guy last.

These guys have all their evaluations handy, it isn't like the old days.

I don't think you earn a reputation for being hard to work with by asking for an extra D level prospect. You earn this reputation by moving the goalposts in the middle of negotiations, or by deceiving a team about a player's medical history, or by being stubborn with ridiculous asks like Gunnar for a role player, for example.  McPhail was able to get trades done despite asking for a lot.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Hallas

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I don't think you earn a reputation for being hard to work with by asking for an extra D level prospect. You earn this reputation by moving the goalposts in the middle of negotiations, or by deceiving a team about a player's medical history, or by being stubborn with ridiculous asks like Gunnar for a role player, for example.  McPhail was able to get trades done despite asking for a lot.

I'd say it would be dependent on how aggressive you were about it.  Trying to get a guy is one thing, holding up a deal for an extended period of time over a fringe player is a different situation and more what I am talking about.

[Sports Guy]

40 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I got to chime in here.

Do you honestly think GMs aren't trying to actively "win" trades by receiving more value than they give up?

You're just saying that because it happens to support whatever point you're trying to make, right?

Because if not, and I hate to go all Sports Guy here, but that's really f-in stupid to think.

I agree…but I also think we need to make sure how you define win.

For example…I think it’s very believable that Elias thinks he won the Irvin trade. He got a competent MLer with a lot of service time for a middling at best prospect that has some upside.

I think every GM is happy to make that trade if you are trying to win.

However, I can see Oakland thinking they won. While Irvin is a competent MLer, the ceiling isn’t high and Hernaiz could become a ML regular at a premium position, so it was worth the risk to do it.

We look at this as a fair deal but each side has other info we aren’t privy to.  

[Sports Guy]

I don’t care what you do in life, you always try to acquire something for less.

I buy a lot of stuff off of Facebook marketplace and while some people are outrageous in what they ask, most are asking fair prices..but I always try to buy it for less.  
 

If you buy a house, a car or whatever, you try to pay less. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t care what you do in life, you always try to acquire something for less.

I buy a lot of stuff off of Facebook marketplace and while some people are outrageous in what they ask, most are asking fair prices..but I always try to buy it for less.  
 

If you buy a house, a car or whatever, you try to pay less. 

Which is different than trying to get over on the other person.

You try and make a good deal for yourself, it isn't important if your side of the deal is better than better than their side.  The best deal is one that both folks leave happy with, since you are more likely to be able to deal with that person again.

[Sports Guy]

30 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Which is different than trying to get over on the other person.

You try and make a good deal for yourself, it isn't important if your side of the deal is better than better than their side.  The best deal is one that both folks leave happy with, since you are more likely to be able to deal with that person again.

Well, this isn’t completely true.

When I had my jeweler store, if I could buy something even cheaper from someone, I would do it.

The other people were just happy to get something for stuff they were going to throw away anyway but I knew I was buying it super cheap.

How someone presents themselves in a deal matters. Lots of people I bought stuff from and barely made anything because it’s what that particular deal called for.

They shopped around, educated themselves, etc…

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Well, this isn’t completely true.

When I had my jeweler store, if I could buy something even cheaper from someone, I would do it.

The other people were just happy to get something for stuff they were going to throw away anyway but I knew I was buying it super cheap.

How someone presents themselves in a deal matters. Lots of people I bought stuff from and barely made anything because it’s what that particular deal called for.

They shopped around, educated themselves, etc…

 

Right, the other people were happy with the result.

Now if you had tried to beat them down and they had something else to sell at a latter date they'd be less likely to seek you out again.

If the educated folks tried too hard to beat you on the margins you'd tell em to walk.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Can_of_corn

[Sports Guy]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Right, the other people were happy with the result.

Now if you had tried to beat them down and they had something else to sell at a latter date they'd be less likely to seek you out again.

If the educated folks tried too hard to beat you on the margins you'd tell em to walk.

No I wouldn’t..you don’t go broke making a profit.  Well, this assumes that I was still making something.  Sometimes people would be unreasonable.  I guess that’s what you mean?

Every deal is different. Some of them you can take advantage of the other side and others you can’t. 

As you said, you want them to come back and how you handle things is what keeps them coming back.

I have heard so many stories of people going to the expensive jewelry stores because they think they are getting good deals..when they are actually getting robbed to the point where it should be illegal.

But people don’t know because they don’t choose to try to find out.

Now, this will be different in an industry like MLB but you better believe the GMs want to win a trade but again, win for them may be different because of what they value and what their scouts think.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Frobby]

I’m reminded of a super-old Batman comic from my childhood where the Joker goes to a baseball game and a slugger hits a game winning homer but after the game is traded for two speedy players who are great defenders, because (as the manager explains) that’s what the team needs.  The Joker gets the concept and then starts trading members of his gang to other gangs for new gang-members with various skills he wants.  

Back to your regularly scheduled program.  
 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m reminded of a super-old Batman comic from my childhood where the Joker goes to a baseball game and a slugger hits a game winning homer but after the game is traded for two speedy players who are great defenders, because (as the manager explains) that’s what the team needs.  The Joker gets the concept and then starts trading members of his gang to other gangs for new gang-members with various skills he wants.  

Back to your regularly scheduled program.  
 

 

Was that like the first Batman comic?  

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

Was that like the first Batman comic?  

I believe it was chiseled on a stone tablet.  

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I believe it was chiseled on a stone tablet.  

Moses?