What do we do about Jorge Mateo?

[OriolesMagic83]

4 hours ago, 2001OriolesFan said:

I agree completely. Mateo is not carrying his weight on this team. I can only surmise that they are trying to add him into a trade for pitching and are giving people the cholce of him or Ortiz. The infield can be Henderson, Urias, Fraiser Westburg and one of [Ortiz/Mateo] or even Vavra. Holiday is going to come up late next year (like Henderson did), not get a full year of service time BUT be on the opening day roster in 2025. (see the following for how this would give the O's an extra high draft pick. https://www.sportingnews.com/.../ja5ts8eaxcuv85xujnzriafb). Some of these roster moves are not obvious (I'm not saying I have it figured out) because they are thinking 3-4 steps down the road.

No one is picking Mateo over Ortiz.  At least make it close value and have a choice of Mateo or Vavra.  Of course that would probably be the 4th piece in a trade.

[banks703]

8 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

No one is picking Mateo over Ortiz.  At least make it close value and have a choice of Mateo or Vavra.  Of course that would probably be the 4th piece in a trade.

At this rate I am not sure who wants Mateo (or Vavra). If they try to pass him through waivers someone will more than likely claim him. As big of a fan of his that I am, even I've been advocating for a move with him. It's well past time to do something with his roster spot. It stinks for sure but got to put the team first. 

 

 

[RZNJ]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

We really don't know what Elias's M.O. is when trying to take a competing team and make it one that could go deep into October. He's never been in this situation so I don't think you can completely judge his potential actions by his previous actions. 

Mateo can be an above average defender at SS when he plays everyday, but we've seen him rally take a step back in that part-time role. I don't know if it's in his head that he's no longer a starter or what, but it's clear his defense has not been reliable late in games of late. 

I don’t disagree but look how much rope they’ve given Cionel, even how many AB’s they’ve given Mateo despite being a complete ZERO on offense since May.   They’ve stuck with Mountcastle to some extent as well.   I don’t see them throwing in the towel on Mateo.    I think they still believe they can resurrect him.

[dzorange]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

I don’t disagree but look how much rope they’ve given Cionel, even how many AB’s they’ve given Mateo despite being a complete ZERO on offense since May.   They’ve stuck with Mountcastle to some extent as well.   I don’t see them throwing in the towel on Mateo.    I think they still believe they can resurrect him.

There’s positional need for Perez and Mountcastle. There’s no real in-house replacements for them, as we’ve seen with the acquisition of Fujinami and the willingness to have Urias and Santander play some first base.

The Orioles have replacements for Mateo. 

[Morgan423]

I'm now on board with trading Mateo out of the way.  I was a big Mateo defender for the longest time, as there's an insane amount of value in a crazy-fast, every-single-and-walk-is-actually-a-double, elite defending shortstop, even if he hits like he's the second coming of César Izturis.  Even if he isn't a main line starter, he can still rest an infielder two or three days a week.  It was still working out well.

But, here's the thing: he's stopped doing all that value-added stuff.  He's not being aggressive at all when he gets on.  He is slumping so badly that outside of an impact hit here or there (like that two rbi double a few days back), he's giving nothing to the team with the bat, not really even walks, as pitchers know they can just attack without consequences.  And the defense has honestly been pretty mediocre on any play that's slightly harder than average lately.

I appreciate what he's done for us up to this point, but with the new kids starting to arrive in town, it might just be time to move on. 

 

[Pat Kelly]

13 minutes ago, Morgan423 said:

I'm now on board with trading Mateo out of the way.  I was a big Mateo defender for the longest time, as there's an insane amount of value in a crazy-fast, every-single-and-walk-is-actually-a-double, elite defending shortstop, even if he hits like he's the second coming of César Izturis.  Even if he isn't a main line starter, he can still rest an infielder two or three days a week.  It was still working out well.

But, here's the thing: he's stopped doing all that value-added stuff.  He's not being aggressive at all when he gets on.  He is slumping so badly that outside of an impact hit here or there (like that two rbi double a few days back), he's giving nothing to the team with the bat, not really even walks, as pitchers know they can just attack without consequences.  And the defense has honestly been pretty mediocre on any play that's slightly harder than average lately.

I appreciate what he's done for us up to this point, but with the new kids starting to arrive in town, it might just be time to move on. 

 

100 percent.  He needs to be DFA'd, traded for a lottery ticket by the weekend. 

[Jammer7]

I went to the Tampa games on Saturday and Sunday. We arrived about 90 minutes before game time and watched the Orioles take infield. They do not take BP on Sundays. It was interesting to watch how different players prepared. Gunnar, Westburg and O’Hearn were out there the longest, and then Urias. Frazier came out a little later in a black/orange soccer jersey. Even Hyde’s son took about 20 reps, and he looked damn good at SS for 15 yoa.

What struck me about this was I never saw Mateo. Maybe there was some reason, and it is only one instance, but it was odd.

To me, Mateo is a guy that seems to play better when he is “The SS.” His confidence soared when he was the man. He definitely is not the man anymore, and it seems he is pouting and/or has lost his confidence. His ego can’t seem to handle the truth.

When Gunnar’s health concerns are through, perhaps Ortiz comes up and Mateo is out, DFA and/or traded. It seems a tough time to have three rookies struggling to make initial adjustments at the same time. To carry Westburg, Cowser, Ortiz and McKenna in the same lineup would be ugly. I realize Ortiz can play a UT role, but is that what is best for his development? IDK, maybe it is, and maybe it is best for the big club. When your team is the AL East leader, it’s tough to commit to that many rookies, besides Gunnar.

I think Mateo should go ASAP. I was very much in favor of giving him every opportunity to be the everyday SS. I thought his changes at the plate were sustainable, as his process had changed in meaningful ways. Suddenly, he reverted back the garbage he came with. If he is that stubborn, and refuses to make adjustments, send him packing.

Lets be clear, we have not seen many players in Baltimore, or anywhere else, with the pure talent Mateo has. If only the aptitude matched…

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

The goal is no longer to achieve a respectable baseline since this team is going to make the playoffs; so now you need to ask what a world-series winning roster looks like. Or you can say that whatever happens this year is gravy because the real focus is on the seasons going forward. How does Adam Frazier as a starter fit into either scheme? The only justification would be that his bat is enough to carry all of his other laggard skills for this year alone even if at the expense of development of guys for the years going forward. But I just find it difficult to believe that we couldn't replace his .723 OPS production, which is a perfectly fair indication of his career output.

Maybe I'm overlooking some scenarios where he could be useful as a pinch hitter off of the bench. If so, then fine, keep him as a bench guy over Jorge, I don't really care. My rationale was just that neither should start and Jorge's skills (speed and defense at SS) are more valuable off of the bench.

Damn you for making me take up for Frazier, but here it goes.

I do like Frazier on the bench. While he's not very good defensively at 2B anymore, he can play there as well as RF in a pinch. But the real reason to keep him is he's a left-handed bat with an infield that could include Urias, Westburg and hopefully Ortiz soon. Frazier has been great in clutch situations and he's proven he can still have quality at bats when he's not playing regularly. 

Add in his above average ability to make contact and put the ball in play, I think he's a guy that is good for the bench.

[DirtyBird]

Give me Frazier over Adley in any meaningful situation at the plate

[Tony-OH]

20 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

Give me Frazier over Adley in any meaningful situation at the plate

hmm, this made me look up their high leverage stats:

 

Rutschman: .213/.372/.344/.716 in 61 PAs with a 16 Bb to 4 K ratio
Frazier:        .340/.419/.547/.967 in 65 PAs with a 7 BB to 9 K ratio

So while I don't know if I'd got that far, Frazier has certainly outperformed him and probably every other Orioles in high leverage situations this year. This is why I like off the bench.        

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Alasdaire said:

The goal is no longer to achieve a respectable baseline since this team is going to make the playoffs; so now you need to ask what a world-series winning roster looks like. Or you can say that whatever happens this year is gravy because the real focus is on the seasons going forward. How does Adam Frazier as a starter fit into either scheme? The only justification would be that his bat is enough to carry all of his other laggard skills for this year alone even if at the expense of development of guys for the years going forward. But I just find it difficult to believe that we couldn't replace his .723 OPS production, which is a perfectly fair indication of his career output.

Maybe I'm overlooking some scenarios where he could be useful as a pinch hitter off of the bench. If so, then fine, keep him as a bench guy over Jorge, I don't really care. My rationale was just that neither should start and Jorge's skills (speed and defense at SS) are more valuable off of the bench.

Is Frazier still the starter? They’ve been starting Westburg almost everyday and mixing in Mateo, Frazier, and Urias between 2nd, 3rd, and SS. Gunnar is now the everyday SS. So basically Westburg, Frazier, and Urias are splitting 2B and 3B. 

[Alasdaire]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Damn you for making me take up for Frazier, but here it goes.

I do like Frazier on the bench. While he's not very good defensively at 2B anymore, he can play there as well as RF in a pinch. But the real reason to keep him is he's a left-handed bat with an infield that could include Urias, Westburg and hopefully Ortiz soon. Frazier has been great in clutch situations and he's proven he can still have quality at bats when he's not playing regularly. 

Add in his above average ability to make contact and put the ball in play, I think he's a guy that is good for the bench.

Fair enough. The question to me is whether from the bench you want what you describe Frazier as versus Mateo's speed or defense at short. Maybe I'm constructing a false choice in pitting those two against each other though. Or maybe I'm clinging to an image of Mateo's skills that don't exist anymore in practice.

The thing that does stand out about Frazier this year is his RBIs. He has 46 through 94 games this year, and his career high is 53 in 121 games all the way back in 2017. His OPS with RISP this year is .929. The funny thing about people defending Frazier here is that just yesterday in the thread about which statistics matter, the consensus was to pretty much laugh at the idea that "clutch" is a real thing. But like I pointed it out there, almost all players/coaches seem to think it exists. If it does and Frazier possesses it, then that is a valuable skill from the bench.

[Tony-OH]

7 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

Fair enough. The question to me is whether from the bench you want what you describe Frazier as versus Mateo's speed or defense at short. Maybe I'm constructing a false choice in pitting those two against each other though. Or maybe I'm clinging to an image of Mateo's skills that don't exist anymore in practice.

The thing that does stand out about Frazier this year is his RBIs. He has 46 through 94 games this year, and his career high is 53 in 121 games all the way back in 2017. His OPS with RISP this year is .929. The funny thing about people defending Frazier here is that just yesterday in the thread about which statistics matter, the consensus was to pretty much laugh at the idea that "clutch" is a real thing. But like I pointed it out there, almost all players/coaches seem to think it exists. If it does and Frazier possesses it, then that is a valuable skill from the bench.

There's always been that "clutch" argument and whether it exists or not. I personally think it does because players are human and some people handle stress better than others. Now whether it's a consistent trait or not I don't know, but the numbers show Frazier has been clutch this year because high leverage, 8th nd 9th inning numbers are off the charts this year.  

All I know is he's done a great job in those opportunities and has rarely had unproductive at bats late in close games. I'll take that on a playoff bound team then a guy who all over the place and not consistent in any part of his game. 

Mateo had a great defensive year last year but he's proven he can't hit consistently and his defense suffers when he's not playing regularly. 

[accinfo]

I suspect this may be one of Mateo's last chances against a lefthander tonight.  They have 4 RH pitchers ahead of them.  It is hard to ignore what Ortiz is doing at AAA.  

[DirtyBird]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

hmm, this made me look up their high leverage stats:

 

Rutschman: .213/.372/.344/.716 in 61 PAs with a 16 Bb to 4 K ratio
Frazier:        .340/.419/.547/.967 in 65 PAs with a 7 BB to 9 K ratio

So while I don't know if I'd got that far, Frazier has certainly outperformed him and probably every other Orioles in high leverage situations this year. This is why I like off the bench.        

BB's aren't very productive in high leverage situations