Why isn't Ortiz in Baltimore instead of Mateo?

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Paul in Virginia said:

 

 

The future should be now. 

[Bemorewins]

3 hours ago, banks703 said:

I don't know if he's necessarily been underrated. Given the org's priority on data and analytics. I am confident that the know exactly what they have in Joey. I can only see what I can see with my own eyes. I don't have access to all of the info that they have but I've seen A LOT of Joey's minor league career and can state with full confidence that he is the best defensive infielder in the org. Only MAYBE Ced and EBJ have a leg up on Joey as the overall best defender in the organization. Because of his defensive prowess and the fact that he's hit VERY well these last two years in Norfolk, it is VERY confusing for me that he's been held down in Norfolk while Jorge has been the black hole in the lineup that he has been the last three months.

The only thought that I can muster is that because he caught fire when he was optioned back to Norfolk (and the fact that they kept winning in spite of little production from Jorge and they just held out hope that Jorge would figure it out at some point) they let Joey rake with the idea that it would increase his trade value. That is the only way that I can reconcile the situation in my head. 

I think it will be a mistake if they trade Joey Ortiz. I personally feel that he is going to have a ten year run as a Jack Wilson type of player but maybe they really do feel that they can let Gunnar stick at SS or that Holliday can improve enough to be serviceable there. Again, they have a lot more information that I have and I trust their decision making (for the most part) but the situation with Joey and Jorge is genuinely a head scratcher for me unless they're hoping to land a TOR pitcher for a package that includes Joey. 

I appreciate the time the well-informed, knowledgeable, detailed response. 

I’m not sure if the org sees things like you in particular regarding Holliday being pushed out of the infield. But I guess we’ll see.

[banks703]

9 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I appreciate the time the well-informed, knowledgeable, detailed response. 

I’m not sure if the org sees things like you in particular regarding Holliday being pushed out of the infield. But I guess we’ll see.

I don’t think Holliday gets pushed out of the infield. I think he’s going to end up at 2B. 

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, banks703 said:

The future should be now. 

This could be posturing 

[eddie83]

Mateo has the fewest PA’s of any Orioles player this month except Mountcastle who was hurt and McCann, the backup C. 

Gunnar is everyday player. When Westburg arrived Mateo’s playing time was impacted. 
 

Why would the Orioles release Mateo and lose him so Ortiz gets a becomes a bench player? I’m fine with the Orioles dealing Mateo but it makes no sense to me to just release him. Would the 30 PA’s that Ortiz in theory would have instead of Mateo be worth no longer having him as an option?  Meanwhile Ortiz plays everyday at AAA and is still an option. 

[banks703]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

This could be posturing 

No doubt. I’ve come around to the idea that Joey may be on the move. As disappointing as that is to me as a big Joey fanboy, I think that him being included in a trade is just as likely as not. 

[banks703]

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Mateo has the fewest PA’s of any Orioles player this month except Mountcastle who was hurt and McCann, the backup C. 

Gunnar is everyday player. When Westburg arrived Mateo’s playing time was impacted. 
 

Why would the Orioles release Mateo and lose him so Ortiz gets a becomes a bench player? I’m fine with the Orioles dealing Mateo but it makes no sense to me to just release him. Would the 30 PA’s that Ortiz in theory would have instead of Mateo be worth no longer having him as an option?  Meanwhile Ortiz plays everyday at AAA and is still an option. 

There’s logic in this but Gunnar has taken over SS more so because of Jorge struggling. Ortiz pushes Gunnar to third mostly. 

[Roll Tide]

9 minutes ago, banks703 said:

No doubt. I’ve come around to the idea that Joey may be on the move. As disappointing as that is to me as a big Joey fanboy, I think that him being included in a trade is just as likely as not. 

I’d want to move Norby before Ortiz 

[banks703]

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I’d want to move Norby before Ortiz 

Norby is going to either be Dan Uggla or out of baseball by 2028. I don’t see either of those outcomes helping the O’s. 
 

So, yeah, I’d deal Norby before Joey. Lol 

[eddie83]

37 minutes ago, banks703 said:

There’s logic in this but Gunnar has taken over SS more so because of Jorge struggling. Ortiz pushes Gunnar to third mostly. 

Westburg had to take playing time away from someone. It was Mateo. Urias is a great glove at 3rd and Westburg is good at 2nd. Gunnar has had a plus glove at SS. Then you add Frazier into the mix. 
 

I just don’t get this idea they should lose someone so a prospect gets inconsistent playing time. This isn’t the Phillies trading Thome so Howard can play everyday. You also have to take into mind there is no longer an August trade deadline. 
 

The Orioles have played 22 games this month. 
 

Gunnar started 21

Frazier 13

Westburg 15

Urias 14

Mateo 9 

 

Two of the starts Urias had came at 1B before Mountcastle was back. Mountcastle indirectly impacts things as well. You won’t be giving Urias playing time at 1B anymore. Right now when a LHP starts Hyde mixes the trio of Urias/Westburg/Frazier around. The only time Mateo starts is vs a LHP. You also have Adley at times being a DH.  

Edited July 29, 2023 by eddie83

[Roll Tide]

53 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Norby is going to either be Dan Uggla or out of baseball by 2028. I don’t see either of those outcomes helping the O’s. 
 

So, yeah, I’d deal Norby before Joey. Lol 

Uggla played 9 years and had 18 WAR. Really he did that over 7 years. I think most teams would be happy with that outcome in return for a 2 month trade rental.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Roll Tide

[OriolesFan1964]

I agree with the previous comment regarding preferring Ortiz over Norby.  I think Ortiz is the better overall player.

However, if Norby can have a Dan Uggla type career, that would be a win for Norby.  Uggla was a hit first 2B, although not the best fielder (he did finish with a .979 fielding%).  Uggla had a very decent career.  Over 10 seasons he hit 235 HRs, had a career .783 OPS,  107OPS+.  He had 5 consecutive seasons of 30+HRs as a 2B (MLB record).  Actually, I think Norby would probably be a better 2B than Uggla and also can play LF, but I doubt he would be as productive as a hitter, since Uggla was a very productive hitter.

[Sydnor]

6 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

If Ortiz is as good as you describe, it makes me wonder why many rankings have him rated in a similar range to Norby, who most posters don’t like much?

If Ortiz is that guy at SS he must be very underrated and probably a similarly talented player as Gunnar Henderson?

Latest rankings:

Keith Law - Ortiz 36; Norby honorable mention

Kiley McDaniel - Ortiz 71; Norby 92 (Westburg 66)

Fangraphs - Ortiz 51 (50 FV); Norby unranked (45 FV)

Pipeline - Ortiz 61; Norby 64

Pipeline is the only national ranking that rates Ortiz in a similar range to Norby.

 

 

[Bemorewins]

8 minutes ago, Sydnor said:

Latest rankings:

Keith Law - Ortiz 36; Norby honorable mention

Kiley McDaniel - Ortiz 71; Norby 92 (Westburg 66)

Fangraphs - Ortiz 51 (50 FV); Norby unranked (45 FV)

Pipeline - Ortiz 61; Norby 64

Pipeline is the only national ranking that rates Ortiz in a similar range to Norby.

 

 

There are MANY other than these including the Athletic's (which I like), mlb.com, sportingnews (just to name a very few).

[banks703]

42 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Uggla played 9 years and had 18 WAR. Really he did that over 7 years. I think most teams would be happy with that outcome in return for a 2 month trade rental.

I’m not taking anything away from Uggla. He had a handful of productive years (five years of OPSing over 800) but he was a defensive liability who wouldn’t fit into what Elias has been/been building. 
 

I always liked how outspoken Uggla was on PEDs but he wouldn’t be a good fit with the O’s current roster construction.