Final Chapter for the Os "veteran" positional player group - Santander, Mullins, Hays, Mountcastle, Frazier, Urias

[Pat Kelly]

Elias and Hyde elected to stay with this positional player group, not upgrade - Jackson Holliday could have been the Os vers of Evan Carter, current Ortiz is equal or better than current AF or Urias - allow for more development and retain prospect assets.    E&H resisted upgrading to improve the postseason performance, probably arguing amongst themselves about short term vs long-term approach.   Also they maintained that the only upgrades would be pitching. 

Have been willing to live without more pitching upgrades since they are often a crapshoot but the lack of in-game power, situational hitting, strike first mentality, patience, game plan by the line-up is tough to watch.  Don't expect the emerging stars Adley, Gunnar, Westburg, HK to be leading things and finished products...they are still WIP.   Not yet convinced the hitting "vets" Mullins, Hays, Mountcastle, Santander, O'Hearn, Frazier, Hicks (from this group only Mullins and Hays are difference makers on defense) are post-season battle tested and capable of post-season small ball or late game heroics against elite bullpens.  

Two questions.  Was the approach to stay with the position player group intentional (only real change was HK for Mckenna)?  Was it the best decision in light of recent performance (or is this just randomness/bad luck)? 

 

[DirtyBird]

Thanks for the thread

[tntoriole]

Just a total crapshoot imho. Carter is somehow going to be 10 for 11 his whole careet? But he is right now.

Any player you mention starting today could get hot for two weeks or they never would be in the bigs. But that is why the games are played not just planned 

 

which is how Rick Dempseys win WS MVPs

[Frobby]

I disagree with the premise that going with Holliday or anyone else in the minors would have been an “upgrade” in the short term.  

[Pat Kelly]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I disagree with the premise that going with Holliday or anyone else in the minors would have been an “upgrade” in the short term.  

I would add and did not make this clear in the original post that trading prospects for positional upgrades should have been on the table.  Again Elias can decide not to make the short-term vs long-term move but you are banking on young star growth (Adley, Gunnar etc), existing vets being good enough and not making an upgrade with either better prospects or trading for a bat. 

I don't think the DH, 2B, 3B slots are playoff caliber bats so you live and die by Gunnar /Adley being elite offensive players (they are not) and optimizing the O'Hearn/Mountcastle platoon along with hoping for the best from slumping Mullins, ok Hays, streaky Santander etc.  Just not enough to make a deep post-season run unless the best versions of everyone shows up which is not realistic. 

Again super exciting team, athletic, fun defensively and on the bases but not an elite on base, power team that has to optimize in the clutch/with men on base to win.  IMO Elias needed to roll the dice on 1-2 more bats to hedge or solidify the current group. 

[tntoriole]

2 minutes ago, Pat Kelly said:

I would add and did not make this clear in the original post that trading prospects for positional upgrades should have been on the table.  Again Elias can decide not to make the short-term vs long-term move but you are banking on young star growth (Adley, Gunnar etc), existing vets being good enough and not making an upgrade with either better prospects or trading for a bat. 

I don't think the DH, 2B, 3B slots are playoff caliber bats so you live and die by Gunnar /Adley being elite offensive players (they are not) and optimizing the O'Hearn/Mountcastle platoon along with hoping for the best from slumping Mullins, ok Hays, streaky Santander etc.  Just not enough to make a deep post-season run unless the best versions of everyone shows up which is not realistic. 

Again super exciting team, athletic, fun defensively and on the bases but not an elite on base, power team that has to optimize in the clutch/with men on base to win.  IMO Elias needed to roll the dice on 1-2 more bats to hedge or solidify the current group. 

Deep postseason runs are always made by the teams whose best versions of their players show up … for 3 weeks .

Plan all you want .. do you think the Dodgers and Braves are “primed” for a “deep run” .. well they are just as close to going home as us . 
 

The fact is .. if Santander lines a ball into the corner instead of into Jung’s glove, your argument would be not being made. 
 

The 1969 Orioles were primed for a deep postseason run too .. they didn’t win.  The best teams don’t win the baseball championship, the teams playing best do. 

[wildcard]

16 minutes ago, Pat Kelly said:

I would add and did not make this clear in the original post that trading prospects for positional upgrades should have been on the table.  Again Elias can decide not to make the short-term vs long-term move but you are banking on young star growth (Adley, Gunnar etc), existing vets being good enough and not making an upgrade with either better prospects or trading for a bat. 

I don't think the DH, 2B, 3B slots are playoff caliber bats so you live and die by Gunnar /Adley being elite offensive players (they are not) and optimizing the O'Hearn/Mountcastle platoon along with hoping for the best from slumping Mullins, ok Hays, streaky Santander etc.  Just not enough to make a deep post-season run unless the best versions of everyone shows up which is not realistic. 

Again super exciting team, athletic, fun defensively and on the bases but not an elite on base, power team that has to optimize in the clutch/with men on base to win.  IMO Elias needed to roll the dice on 1-2 more bats to hedge or solidify the current group. 

The DH yesterday, Santander, hit a homer and scored both runs.  Hard to not be in favor that.

Pretty clear from Hyde's presser that they are going with who got them to the playoffs.  Seems like that has been the plan and they are executing it.

Your point only holds up if they lose the series.  If they win three games, which they could,  there will be nothing to compliant about.

Edited October 8, 2023 by wildcard

[Osornot]

17 minutes ago, Pat Kelly said:

I would add and did not make this clear in the original post that trading prospects for positional upgrades should have been on the table.  Again Elias can decide not to make the short-term vs long-term move but you are banking on young star growth (Adley, Gunnar etc), existing vets being good enough and not making an upgrade with either better prospects or trading for a bat. 

I don't think the DH, 2B, 3B slots are playoff caliber bats so you live and die by Gunnar /Adley being elite offensive players (they are not) and optimizing the O'Hearn/Mountcastle platoon along with hoping for the best from slumping Mullins, ok Hays, streaky Santander etc.  Just not enough to make a deep post-season run unless the best versions of everyone shows up which is not realistic. 

Again super exciting team, athletic, fun defensively and on the bases but not an elite on base, power team that has to optimize in the clutch/with men on base to win.  IMO Elias needed to roll the dice on 1-2 more bats to hedge or solidify the current group. 

I get it, I really do. But the first thing I could think of is that if we lost 10-9 the point of your post what not have changed except it would be about pitching.  

[Osornot]

8 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Deep postseason runs are always made by the teams whose best versions of their players show up … for 3 weeks .

Plan all you want .. do you think the Dodgers and Braves are “primed” for a “deep run” .. well they are just as close to going home as us . 
 

The fact is .. if Santander lines a ball into the corner instead of into Jung’s glove, your argument would be not being made. 
 

The 1969 Orioles were primed for a deep postseason run too .. they didn’t win.  The best teams don’t win the baseball championship, the teams playing best do. 

Exactly.  

[Pat Kelly]

50 minutes ago, Osornot said:

Exactly.  

Agree that's the best case outcome.  Would have felt better with 1-2 more established bats - 2014 vers of Nelson Cruz comes to mimd - Optimistic we will begin to see that with this group!

[Birdland in NC]

Stop 

[Dunk35]

After his atrocious 2nd half and complete disappearance in the playoffs, Cedric Mullins gotta go. His 30-30 season was cool I guess but we lost 100 games that year. We need to be winning games now. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

13 minutes ago, Dunk35 said:

After his atrocious 2nd half and complete disappearance in the playoffs, Cedric Mullins gotta go. His 30-30 season was cool I guess but we lost 100 games that year. We need to be winning games now. 

Cedric has always been very hot or very cold since he was first called up, other than his one good year.  Remember the first year he was called up and hit like a demon for 2 months, then got sent down a month later. 

 

I like him, but he is not a guy who you are going to win long term with. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by OnlyOneOriole

[Aristotelian]

Elias has got us to this point by developing a plan and sticking to it. If you want a GM to make impulsive decisions on small sample sizes, eye tests, and gut feelings, you are going to need a new GM.

We could have traded for a different pitcher but based on his second half Grayson still starts game two. We could have promoted Holliday but who knows, maybe we lose even worse without Mateo's four hits.

[spiritof66]

46 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Elias has got us to this point by developing a plan and sticking to it. If you want a GM to make impulsive decisions on small sample sizes, eye tests, and gut feelings, you are going to need a new GM.

We could have traded for a different pitcher but based on his second half Grayson still starts game two. We could have promoted Holliday but who knows, maybe we lose even worse without Mateo's four hits.

You can't blame management for the G-Rod debacle. You can blame management for not acquiring a good LHed starter and forcing Hyde to rely on some pretty crappy bullpen pieces.  

I'm still waiting to see what Elias's plan is for upgrading the pitching staff, trading or retaining veteran position players (Hays, Mullins, Mountcastle, Santander), and improving the team and/or the MiL system by trading some of the highly regarded but redundant MiL talent for ML talent or younger prospects. Maybe some of you know what that plan is, but I sure don't.