Jump to content

ROY manipulation


MarCakes21

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

All I’m saying is that it’s performance + performance of the guys/team in front of him.  They are going to manage assets to get the most value of out of the entire portfolio.  

And paying Mullins 10-15M in 2025 and letting him walk for, at best, a comp pick is a poor way to manage that asset if you have someone who can take his place.

Edited by Sports Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

First off we are talking about RoY manipulation, there is a gap between RoY winner and failed prospect.

Honestly if he ends up being a fourth outfielder/defensive specialist in the majors than he hasn't "failed".

Folks have weirdly high standards for prospects.

Correct.  Which is why I outline a *potential scenario in which he would be eligible in 2026.  The exact year our current CFs contract expires…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2024

Cowser or Kjerstad would have a good shot to compile #s this year if we decided to move one of Santander/Hays. 

Mayo if for some reason he’s to OD 3rd basemen, but idk why we’d give up that extra year of control for three weeks this year. 

Holliday would be one of the favorites if we could sign him to an extension this offseason. 

2025

Going forward I could see that Kjerstad has is rookie eligibility for next year and we lose Santa and O’Hearn in FA. 

2026

Basallo if an extension is reached. EBJ if he’s the day one starter in CF to replace Mullins. EBJ would get his feet wet in September of 2025. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And paying Mullins 10-15M in 2025 and letting him walk for, at best, a comp pick is a poor way to manage that asset if you have someone who can take his place.

I get that.  I think Mullins is tricky.  Similar to Santander, who is going to get more, and in the same position.  Mullins might not be able to get good value in trade market and his best value to the team could be locking down CF until EBJ is ready.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, emmett16 said:

I get that.  I think Mullins is tricky.  Similar to Santander, who is going to get more, and in the same position.  Mullins might not be able to get good value in trade market and his best value to the team could be locking down CF until EBJ is ready.    

Ok but that’s the point. If EBJ is ready, he absolutely should be starting 2025 in Cf on OD.

If EBJ isn’t ready, that is a red flag for his future imo.

I don’t see a scenario where EBJ is ready and Mullins has value but we keep Mullins and keep EBJ in the minors.  That just isn’t logical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure, and if he's "that guy" they are going to manage one of those assets out of town to make room for him.

Leaving him in the minors isn't getting you the most value.

Who would you say is a recent example of the team doing that?  Looks like a lot of guys that appear to be “that guy” who are currently in a similar situation.  

If the guy in front of him contributes to a WS run and his value/skills can be put towards an additional year 6 years later, I’d say that’s just about max value.  

 

Edited by emmett16
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

34.5% of 17th overall picks don't even make the majors.

 

Good for those guys…but the Os are developing at a high level, he’s an advanced college player and 2/3 of his game are likely already elite.

Everyone’s expectation for him should be that he can manage an OPS high enough that he is a very good ML CFer and that OpS doesn’t have to get to a high level for that to be the case.

Expecting him to be a 680-710 OPS bat isn’t a high expectation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And paying Mullins 10-15M in 2025 and letting him walk for, at best, a comp pick is a poor way to manage that asset if you have someone who can take his place.

I think you sometimes underrate the human element of the game.  Sure Mullins is an “asset” but he’s also a respected guy in the clubhouse who’s paid his dues.  And sometimes front offices keep those guys around through their Arb years even if trading them before that would be “optimal asset management.”   Not always - look at Mancini.  But sometimes.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Who would you say is a recent example of the team doing that?  Looks like a lot of guys that appear to be “that guy” who are currently in a similar situation.  
 

 

Good question and I'm going to dodge it because I don't feel like doing the work to answer it.

I can't think of any team leaving a guy that could be a 3+ Win player in the minors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think you sometimes underrate the human element of the game.  Sure Mullins is an “asset” but he’s also a respected guy in the clubhouse who’s paid his dues.  And sometimes front offices keep those guys around through their Arb years even if trading them before that would be “optimal asset management.”   Not always - look at Mancini.  But sometimes.  

The Os have plenty of respected guys in the clubhouse.

If Mullins is here in 2025, it’s because the Os don’t have another CF option. That’s possible and if that’s the case, so be it. I wouldn’t be too excited to trade him this offseason because of our lack of options for CF in 2024.

But if he is our best option, (going back to the actual point here), it’s likely because EBJ has struggled too much in the minors and that leaves plenty of doubt about whether or not he will be what the Os drafted him to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os have plenty of respected guys in the clubhouse.

If Mullins is here in 2025, it’s because the Os don’t have another CF option. That’s possible and if that’s the case, so be it. I wouldn’t be too excited to trade him this offseason because of our lack of options for CF in 2024.

But if he is our best option, (going back to the actual point here), it’s likely because EBJ has struggled too much in the minors and that leaves plenty of doubt about whether or not he will be what the Os drafted him to be.

Well, saying he won’t have rookie status in 2026 and saying he’ll be the starting CF in 2025 are two different things.   This guy wasn’t a top 5 or top 10 pick.  Expecting him to progress fast enough to replace Mullins by the start of the 2025 season is asking a lot.  And I say that even though I agree with you that a .680-.710 OPS for him as a rookie would probably be adequate given his baserunning and defense.   

In any event, the O’s don’t need to make that judgment now.  Mullins almost undoubtedly will be here in 2024, and we’ll see how Bradfield does over the course of the year and the team will be in a much better position to judge if he couid take over CF at the beginning of 2025.   
 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Good question and I'm going to dodge it because I don't feel like doing the work to answer it.

I can't think of any team leaving a guy that could be a 3+ Win player in the minors.

I was talking about the Os.  I’m going to assume they will continue to operate similarly to how they have historically.  
 

Jordan Westburg comes to mind.  His output this year equates to a 3+ Win season.  It sure seemed like he was ready at the beginning of the year, if not even a little bit earlier. 
 

Im not offering my opinion of what they should do, but what I think they’ll do based on what they’ve done in the past. 
 

As it relates to the 2026 ROY, I think if they slow roll EBJ, he’d be a good candidate.  It’s not out of the realm of possibility and it doesn’t mean he’s a failed prospect.  

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os have plenty of respected guys in the clubhouse.

If Mullins is here in 2025, it’s because the Os don’t have another CF option. That’s possible and if that’s the case, so be it. I wouldn’t be too excited to trade him this offseason because of our lack of options for CF in 2024.

But if he is our best option, (going back to the actual point here), it’s likely because EBJ has struggled too much in the minors and that leaves plenty of doubt about whether or not he will be what the Os drafted him to be.

What if Mullins has a career year this year and is healthy?  He’d be pretty motivated with a ton of confidence to put up an equally good year in his walk year. 

Do I think that will happen? No.  But it’s not out of the realm of possibility. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...