Jackson Holliday spring training watch

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, banks703 said:

The point is that Gunnar is far and away the superior defender at the more premier defensive position. They would not move Gunnar to a less important position is my point and valid. 

 

I think you are putting too much emphasis on one position and ignoring others, which I believe is the real disconnect.  
 

SS is certainly male important but not at the detriment of the rest of the IF.

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I think you are putting too much emphasis on one position and ignoring others, which I believe is the real disconnect.  
 

SS is certainly male important but not at the detriment of the rest of the IF.

Freudian slip?

[RZNJ]

1. Banks is alone in thinking Holliday isn't a SS.  All evaluators seem to believe he'll be at least ML average.

2. To Banks credit the arm and getting caught on in between hops is something he pointed out and has been agreed with by some so called   "experts".

3. There is only Keith Law who seems to think that Holliday is better than Henderson right now.

4. It's hard to know the total lowdown with so many different opinions.  The majority seem to believe that Holliday is not as good as Henderson now but good enough to play an average ML SS with a chance to be plus in time.

5. Everything is open to one's own interpretation but mine is that Henderson's next 5 years will be at SS and Holliday's next 5 will be at 2B and Elias and Hyde believe that's the best alignment for the team.

[jabba72]

Im curious what Hollidays comments are about 2B. If he has any quotes on that.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, banks703 said:

You're just moving goal posts at this point. I have 100% stated and will continue to state that he is not going to be a good defender at SS.. because he will not be a good defender at SS.

Actually, I don’t think that’s what you said.  I recall you saying that he’s not currently a good defender at SS, but I think you were pretty open to the possibility that he’d develop into a solid SS in time.  

In any event, it’s pretty clear that Holliday isn’t pushing Gunnar off SS this spring or anytime real soon.  
 

[clapdiddy]

31 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think I'm the only one who doesn't care where he ends up in the field.  Speaking strictly for myself, I find the endless debate on here about what side of second base he stands on to be borderline insufferable.  Whatever happens, happens...and it's not like the Orioles don't have good options for wherever Holliday doesn't end up standing in the field, either.  

Totally agree.  I trust the guys making the decisions to put the best player at the best spot on the field.

[Just Regular]

Longenhagen doesn't write about Gunnar or MLB'ers much anymore, but doing a compare-contrast in this afternoon's chat, he volunteers he now thinks Holliday projects more surely at SS than Gunnar did for him this time last year.      Gunnar's defensive growth was part of his 2023 success.

12:08

Angelus Novus: Why is Hollday (70) graded higher than pre-2023 Gunnar/Carroll (65s)? Who do you take over the next decade, from that group?

12:08

Eric A Longenhagen: Better perceived chance to stay at SS than I had of Gunnar at that point. Tough not to take Gunnar of those three in this moment.

 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The prospect ranking stuff is being done by people who have seen him and project him.

The rankings may not matter much overall but the point is those doing all of this work don’t believe he is destined for second base long term. They all believe he is a SS.

They believe he could play SS if that’s what the team needed him to do.  But it appears that’s not what the O’s think is best for the team now, and it’s likely he’ll be at 2B a long time if that’s where he gets most of his reps this year.  

This really isn’t very different than when Manny came up.  He was drafted as a SS, played almost nothing but SS in the minors, but the opening was at 3B because the O’s had a very good defensive SS.   So he played 3B, excelled there, and when he tried moving back to SS 5-6 years later, he wasn’t all that good there and moved back to 3B.   It wasn’t because the evaluators were wrong about Manny when he was drafted.   It’s just how his career developed.   
 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

They believe he could play SS if that’s what the team needed him to do.  But it appears that’s not what the O’s think is best for the team now, and it’s likely he’ll be at 2B a long time if that’s where he gets most of his reps this year.  

This really isn’t very different than when Manny came up.  He was drafted as a SS, played almost nothing but SS in the minors, but the opening was at 3B because the O’s had a very good defensive SS.   So he played 3B, excelled there, and when he tried moving back to SS 5-6 years later, he wasn’t all that good there and moved back to 3B.   It wasn’t because the evaluators were wrong about Manny when he was drafted.   It’s just how his career developed.   
 

I don’t think this discussions matters for what the team does this year. 

In the NFL, elite tackle prospects get drafted and play guard their first year. 
 

Zero about this conversation has to do with 2024, deal the first half of the season.

[banks703]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Actually, I don’t think that’s what you said.  I recall you saying that he’s not currently a good defender at SS, but I think you were pretty open to the possibility that he’d develop into a solid SS in time.  

In any event, it’s pretty clear that Holliday isn’t pushing Gunnar off SS this spring or anytime real soon.  
 

I have stated that I believe that he will improve. 100% I think he will improve but I also do not believe that he is ever going to be the best defensive option at the position and on a team like the O's who have gone out of their way to prioritize defense up the middle, I just don't see him being the guy there unless they give him the Manny treatment at the end of his tenure with the O's and potentially market him to other teams as a SS for trade value.

Eventually I think they can they stick him there if they absolutely have to do so and he won't butcher the position but he's not going to be a good defender. That's my feeling. Perhaps they eventually can live with the subpar D there if it increases his trade value when the time comes. Maybe he will shock me and improve enough to be good there. I doubt it...although David Eckstein had a long career as a SS in the majors despite MAJOR physical limitations and generally poor defense as a SS.. and he was not half the offensive player that JH is going to grow into. 

[banks703]

28 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Im curious what Hollidays comments are about 2B. If he has any quotes on that.

I happened upon a quote (and I failed to find it for @Frobby sometime ago but the quote was something along the lines that he grew up playing 2B and felt most comfortable there and that he still considers himself a good 2B despite having played SS the last few years. I believe that quote was taken from him prior to him being drafted but again, I had to stop citing it because I can't find it. 

[Sports Guy]

You think he will improve but yet you think he will never be good?  So that means you must think he’s a complete liability now which discredits anything you say. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

You think he will improve but yet you think he will never be good?  So that means you must think he’s a complete liability now which discredits anything you say. 

Or that any improvement would be slight.

Because the scale doesn't go right from complete liability to good.

Maybe you could have a person that is below average at something and have them improve to the point at which they were average.

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You think he will improve but yet you think he will never be good?  So that means you must think he’s a complete liability now which discredits anything you say. 

It doesn’t seem that inconsistent to me.  Take what Longenhagen said:

“He also isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender and definitely isn’t better than Gunnar Henderson is right now….he’s talented enough to project as a suitable shortstop within the next couple of years.”

For me, “suitable” doesn’t necessarily mean “good.”   It means adequate.   And you can find any number of bat-first adequate shortstops in the major leagues.  There’s one who just missed being unanimously elected to the Hall of Fame.  But in Holliday’s case, there’s a better SS on his team now, so I’m not sure he’s going to get the reps and experience to improve his play at SS in the next few years, so he may end up at 2B long term.  If so, that’s hardly the end of the world, for the Orioles or for him.  

[RZNJ]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It doesn’t seem that inconsistent to me.  Take what Longenhagen said:

“He also isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender and definitely isn’t better than Gunnar Henderson is right now….he’s talented enough to project as a suitable shortstop within the next couple of years.”

For me, “suitable” doesn’t necessarily mean “good.”   It means adequate.   And you can find any number of bat-first adequate shortstops in the major leagues.  There’s one who just missed being unanimously elected to the Hall of Fame.  But in Holliday’s case, there’s a better SS on his team now, so I’m not sure he’s going to get the reps and experience to improve his play at SS in the next few years, so he may end up at 2B long term.  If so, that’s hardly the end of the world, for the Orioles or for him.  

Longehagen still thinks Westburg is so bad that he needs a defensive caddy.  I’ll have to take his in person scouting of defense with a grain of salt.