Jackson Holliday 2024

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, OriolesUpAndDowns said:

The throw from 2B to 1B is definitely a different angle and the timing is also different.  With that being said though, he’s a professional ball player with an extreme talent, he can and should get better fairly quick over there. If this is still happening beginning of next season, then I’ll be worried.  
 

I’ve always been intrigued by him in the OF and I’m curious if he could handle LF. That would allow Cowser to take over full time in CF.  

Defense is largely about effort. How much effort he chooses to put into this will determine how good or bad he will be.

My assumption (could be a bad one) has been that he hurt his elbow because he has been doing a lot of arm strengthen exercises, all of which anyone can google search and see what they are.

If that assumption is correct, that tells me he knows he has to improve defensively, which tells me that he will work at it.

He is an excellent athlete who is trying to do a million things at once and is doing it at age 20 at the highest level in the world.

It’s taking some time. He clearly doesn’t have that pure great defensive ability to fall back on that some can right from the start(see Manny). It appears he has to work on things to get better and maybe work harder than others who are more natural defensively.

Thats fine..most players fall into that category. Most players don’t go from playing position X for most/all their life and then suddenly change it and excel from day 1. Now, maybe some get there quicker than Holliday has but most aren’t 20 years when they do it…and most aren’t doing at the highest level while having #1 prospect pressure on the too.

So far, Holliday looks to me to be a guy that has gotten into some lazy tendencies. Footwork isn’t good, evening catching a pop up he’s very nonchalant. He needs to clean up that “easy stuff”. We are seeing the same thing with Gunnar recently. Lots of lazy type play. 
 

Im not worried about either though. I think they are hard working guys who will do what they need to do to get better. Gunnar likely finds it quicker than Holliday does.

Edited August 9 by Sports Guy

[banks703]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I know nothing about this article.  No idea why you say “I know that”. I have never heard this before.

What am I wrong about?  Your utter stupidity that he can never improve is just that…stupidity. If this is still an issue 2-3 years from now, I will gladly say you were right and I was wrong.

You act as if what you say is supposed to matter. You say you do some scouting. None of us know if you are telling the truth. We have no idea who you are and there is no reason for us to think your opinion should matter over all scouts and people in and around the game..including the Os themselves.

I agree that you were right about his arm strength being an issue. That’s fine. But the rest of it is just bs at this point.

You have a belief that he will never be good. That’s fine. But you aren’t right about that until it happens..just as I’m not right he will be good until it happens.

My issue with you has been and continues to be your insistence that he will never improve. I don’t have any issue with your assessment now. I am not arguing with you on that whatsoever. 

Can you not read? Or do you just choose to ignore every time that I post "he will improve" like I did above? This is YOUR issue. You get laser focused on your point and have an inability to comprehend that you may be wrong about something. Jesus, living with you must be miserable. 

Him not ever being a good defender at SS and he will improve can both be true. Your go-to in criticizing the person vs. sticking to your argument is all that you have. It's called ad hominem. And your gaslighting doesn't work like you think that it does. 

[banks703]

20 minutes ago, OriolesUpAndDowns said:

The throw from 2B to 1B is definitely a different angle and the timing is also different.  With that being said though, he’s a professional ball player with an extreme talent, he can and should get better fairly quick over there. If this is still happening beginning of next season, then I’ll be worried.  
 

I’ve always been intrigued by him in the OF and I’m curious if he could handle LF. That would allow Cowser to take over full time in CF.  

He's been playing 2B professionally for three seasons now. Will he improve? Yes but he's never going to be a good defender, especially not at SS. 

[banks703]

15 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

This is just a lie. We literally had this discussion a few weeks ago..pages 152-156 or so.

 

Show me where I claimed that he would never improve? I've never once suggested that he wouldn't improve. Not once ever. I have maintained that he will not be a good defender at SS, ever. Because he does not have the physical makeup of a good defensive SS. That's genetics. 

[Sports Guy]

21 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Can you not read? Or do you just choose to ignore every time that I post "he will improve" like I did above? This is YOUR issue. You get laser focused on your point and have an inability to comprehend that you may be wrong about something. Jesus, living with you must be miserable. 

Him not ever being a good defender at SS and he will improve can both be true. Your go-to in criticizing the person vs. sticking to your argument is all that you have. It's called ad hominem. And your gaslighting doesn't work like you think that it does. 

Stop being so dramatic. I don’t even know what you argument is because you are all over the place. You say he will never be good..but then you say he won’t hurt you over there. You say he won’t be good but then you say, he just won’t be our best option.

So let me try to decipher your drivel.  Are you saying that he is basically well below average now (or whatever terminology you want to use) and that while you think he can improve, that he will never be more than average?

 

Is that essentially your stance?  

[Pickles]

19 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Show me where I claimed that he would never improve? I've never once suggested that he wouldn't improve. Not once ever. I have maintained that he will not be a good defender at SS, ever. Because he does not have the physical makeup of a good defensive SS. That's genetics. 

 I don't see how anyone can watch him throw a baseball and say he can be a good major league ss.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Pickles said:

 I don't see how anyone can watch him throw a baseball and say he can be a good major league ss.

It’s not good right now. No doubting that.

[OriolesMagic83]

Holliday is very fast and athletic.  He has spent his whole baseball life playing SS.  No doubt, he is unlearning the SS way of doing things and learning the 2B way.  I think that he will be an above average 2B fielder by opening day next year.  A lot of posters believed he was a failure as a baseball player after he went 2 for 34 in his first call up.  It's possible he's 20, still learning and growing, and just got called up to the highest level and dealing with a position change. 

[banks703]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Stop being so dramatic. I don’t even know what you argument is because you are all over the place. You say he will never be good..but then you say he won’t hurt you over there. You say he won’t be good but then you say, he just won’t be our best option.

So let me try to decipher your drivel.  Are you saying that he is basically well below average now (or whatever terminology you want to use) and that while you think he can improve, that he will never be more than average?

 

Is that essentially your stance?  

It is all the same but you are being pompous and you know it. 

Yes, he is currently below average. I don't know that we need the adverb there. Will he improve? Yes, I do believe that with more reps, maturity and the most elite coaching in the world, he will get better. Will he ever be a good defender (meaning positive value provided via defense)? No, I do not believe that he will ever be that at SS... for the myriad of reasons that I have posted, not just his arm. His best chance at being a positively affecting defender in the infield is at 2B. Period. ME can pepper all the GM-speak stuff that he does but for anyone who knows what they are watching, JH does not profile as a major league SS.

2B is his to lose. Can he be a 30-30 guy at 2B? I think he has that potential but better than that, I think that he is an absurdly high OBP guy there with a lot of slug. I think he is going to have seasons like Soto where he is in the .425 range for OBP. That is VERY productive as a 2B. He would be the best offensive 2B in baseball. He's just not going to be the best defensive 2B, which is perfectly fine if the trade-off is the potential double digit WAR via the offense.

He is a very athletic kid. His 28.9 sprint speed probably improves a little bit as he further matures. I don't know if I would put him in the Jorge conversation for that level of elite athleticism but he is very athletic and his skills as a MI growing up may translate to CF much like others before him (Adam Jones was a SS in the minors before being moved to CF and he did pretty well there). 

[Frobby]

12 hours ago, survivedc said:

Well he's not playing SS, he's playing 2B. They aren't the same. 

That said, while he may never be a gold glover over there, he is going to be fine by September. 

Why?  He played 68 games at 2B in the minors this year.  Why is he going to magically flip a switch in September?  I do think he’ll improve gradually over time, but I’m not expecting huge improvement during the course of this season.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, banks703 said:

It is all the same but you are being pompous and you know it. 

Yes, he is currently below average. I don't know that we need the adverb there. Will he improve? Yes, I do believe that with more reps, maturity and the most elite coaching in the world, he will get better. Will he ever be a good defender (meaning positive value provided via defense)? No, I do not believe that he will ever be that at SS... for the myriad of reasons that I have posted, not just his arm. His best chance at being a positively affecting defender in the infield is at 2B. Period. ME can pepper all the GM-speak stuff that he does but for anyone who knows what they are watching, JH does not profile as a major league SS.

2B is his to lose. Can he be a 30-30 guy at 2B? I think he has that potential but better than that, I think that he is an absurdly high OBP guy there with a lot of slug. I think he is going to have seasons like Soto where he is in the .425 range for OBP. That is VERY productive as a 2B. He would be the best offensive 2B in baseball. He's just not going to be the best defensive 2B, which is perfectly fine if the trade-off is the potential double digit WAR via the offense.

He is a very athletic kid. His 28.9 sprint speed probably improves a little bit as he further matures. I don't know if I would put him in the Jorge conversation for that level of elite athleticism but he is very athletic and his skills as a MI growing up may translate to CF much like others before him (Adam Jones was a SS in the minors before being moved to CF and he did pretty well there). 

It’s not all the same. People have different definitions.  For example, you are saying he will never be good but then you also say he won’t hurt you.  To me, those are 2 contradictory statements.

But fair enough. I know how you are defining it.  I also find it amusing that you are calling anyone pompous. Mr trust my opinion and not those in and around the game.  lol. 

Edited August 9 by Sports Guy

[survivedc]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Why?  He played 68 games at 2B in the minors this year.  Why is he going to magically flip a switch in September?  I do think he’ll improve gradually over time, but I’m not expecting huge improvement during the course of this season.

Because I saw him a few times in the minors at SS and he moved fluidly and confidently there. I had not seen him at 2B in the minors but did read a few reports that he seemed capable of handling it. From what I’ve seen of him at 2B in the majors it seems like a confidence thing and I think a month of playing the position up here he will grow sure of himself and call off Mountcastle on a pop up, or take an extra beat to make a good throw. It will be more like turning on a faucet, not flipping a switch, for whatever that’s worth.

[banks703]

1 hour ago, Pickles said:

 I don't see how anyone can watch him throw a baseball and say he can be a good major league ss.

It's not just the arm though. The way that he let's balls play him sometimes, his instincts don't scream out to me as being high level. I don't like him going to his right/the backhand isn't great. I don't like his double-play feed or his footwork. I don't like his coming across the bag (at neither 2B nor SS)..  Not only is the arm in the weaker 2% or so for the league but his throws are long due to the lack of arm strength so his timing isn't great either. I don't like his bottom half or how he bends at the hips when fielding.. There's a lot that I don't like for a team that has put a premium on their defense. Will he improve? Yes, he will improve but I just don't think that he's ever going to be a good defender in the infield, especially not at SS.

That being said.. I'm still running him out there right every night because of his stick. I think that his bat more positively impacts the game than his defense negatively impacts it. If they move him to the grass, that should be done in the offseason. His dad had a great career as a left-fielder. There'd be nothing wrong with a move to the outfield.

Some folks take this as a harsh criticism of him as a player. It isn't that. It's that we have folks who just fail to acknowledge that he has flaws in his game. His bat is what is valuable. It wasn't his glove that got him drafted 1:1. Just because he was drafted as a SS doesn't mean that he HAS to be a SS. 

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, banks703 said:

Response - Needs? No. I think it's possible and may end up being the best move for both him and the team but needs is a strong word that I have never used as it pertains to a move to the OF. I've just never felt that he profiles as a SS, much less a good defender at SS and was adamant that he would end up at 2B because of the IF positions, that's where his physical skills profile best. I still think that a move to the OF is possible. 

Answer - It's not about moving him for someone else. It's about fielding the best team both offensively and defensively. Mayo to 3B, Westy to 2B is in my eyes the better defensive lineup. Westy is the more sure-thing infield defender on the right side, Gunnar's arm and range can makeup for some of Mayo's limitations. It's easy to cite a flaw in that logic when Gunnar was kicking and throwing it around for a couple of weeks but to me, with the players in the org for the next four years, that's the best infield alignment. That pushes JH to the OF. Could that change? Certainly but that's how I see it. 

Answer - I've been pretty critical of Coby's play on defense but the criticism of him isn't about ability as it is with JH. I just don't see a good infielder defender in JH's profile. I think that Coby can play a Troy Glaus level at 3B, which would be good enough with a premiere defender playing next to him. 

Answer - Of course. Mayo has many holes in his game but I think that his chances of improving enough at 3B to stick there long-term with the O's are slightly better than JH's chances of sticking in the infield. That's my feeling not necessarily because of the two of them individually but because of the players in the org.

Out of the 3 of Westburg, Holliday, and Holliday, so far Westburg is the only good defender of the 3 (at 3B). 

You talk a lot about Holliday not being a good defensive 2B after you say he has spent 3 years at the position and assert that he was a 2B growing up before moving to SS. But again Mayo has not been good defensively and he has had even longer time as a pro. And the mechanical adjustments that the Orioles have tried to fix his release haven't yielded positive results up until this point.

I'm not asserting that you are not knowledgable or don't know what you are talking about from an evaluation standpoint. However, it seems interesting to me (from your posting history) that you have two sets of criteria when evaluating the two players. One could interpret this as a double standard.

You have said you "don't see a good infielder defender in JH's profile". And that may be very well how things turn out, but do you see a good infielder defender in Mayo's profile?

Mayo has not been a good defender during his entire professional tenure (which has been longer than Holliday as he is older by a couple of years). What gives you that kind of optimism about him "improving enough to stick there long-term"? But not Holliday?

 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, banks703 said:

It's not just the arm though. The way that he let's balls play him sometimes, his instincts don't scream out to me as being high level. I don't like him going to his right/the backhand isn't great. I don't like his double-play feed or his footwork. I don't like his coming across the bag (at neither 2B nor SS)..  Not only is the arm in the weaker 2% or so for the league but his throws are long due to the lack of arm strength so his timing isn't great either. I don't like his bottom half or how he bends at the hips when fielding.. There's a lot that I don't like for a team that has put a premium on their defense. Will he improve? Yes, he will improve but I just don't think that he's ever going to be a good defender in the infield, especially not at SS.

That being said.. I'm still running him out there right every night because of his stick. I think that his bat more positively impacts the game than his defense negatively impacts it. If they move him to the grass, that should be done in the offseason. His dad had a great career as a left-fielder. There'd be nothing wrong with a move to the outfield.

Some folks take this as a harsh criticism of him as a player. It isn't that. It's that we have folks who just fail to acknowledge that he has flaws in his game. His bat is what is valuable. It wasn't his glove that got him drafted 1:1. Just because he was drafted as a SS doesn't mean that he HAS to be a SS. 

Zero people have said he has no flaws.  Show one comment saying that.  You are crying about gaslighting but here you are.  
 

Go on, I’ll wait for you to show me those posts.