Jackson Holliday 2024

[wildcard]

There is no comparison to Gunnar's arm.  Gunnar has a gun.    I think that is what we have become used to at SS.   Since Holliday was drafted I never thought he had Gunnar's arm.

But it's my understanding that Holliday played SS in high school and travel ball.  He was drafted as a SS.   He has learned to use his momentum going towards 1st to help his throws.

He has played 89 games at 2B combining his minor and major league games.   He is not a finished product at 2B.    I think it premature to say he will not be a good defender that can't turn double plays at 2B.   He has really good body control.     He can get better with time.

It's a learned skill for a 2B to go to the bag, turn and throw to 1st.   Holliday has  some work to do at 2B.

Edited August 12 by wildcard

[survivedc]

12 hours ago, Pickles said:

I think it's fair to say that banks was right concerning Holliday's arm preventing him from ever being a "good" defensive SS.   And his evaluation was way more accurate and way earlier than the general scouting community's. 

I guess we’ll just have to disagree there. We haven’t seen a mature Holliday at short so we can’t say with any degree of certainty that he is right, at the moment. 
 

It’s also worth noting, going back through scouting reports over the last 2 years, that just about everyone mentioned that he had the ability and project ability to play SS, if not the skills. Meaning that nobody thought he was going to be locked in to those positions as a 20 year old major leaguer. We were very spoiled with Manny (and with Gunnar to a lesser extent). While JH probably won’t be platinum glove caliber, he could still be a major league shortstop.

[Frobby]

I think people need to realize that a player can be a very good shortstop without having a cannon.  Just looking at this year’s OAA leaders, Dansby Swanson is 2nd at +14 and Francisco Lindor is 3rd at +13.   Yet, Swanson is 39th of 54 listed shortstops in arm strength at 81.4 mph and Lindor is 35th at 81.7.   That’s more than 7 mph slower than Gunnar and Witt, 13-14 mph slower than Oneil Cruz.  

Now, Holliday only averages 77.5 mph at 2B, but his average probably would be considerably higher if he were playing SS.   For example, Dylan Moore is averaging 73.2 when he plays 2B and 77.3 at SS.  The nature of throws at SS are different than 2B; the fielder has better momentum towards 1B a lot of the time.  Therefore, I think it’s quite possible that Holliday would be in the Swanson-Lindor arm strength range if he played SS, and as those two have shown, it’s possible to play very good defense at that level of arm strength.  

To be clear, I’m not saying Holliday would be as good a SS as Swanson or Holliday if he played there.   I’m only saying that his arm strength doesn’t necessarily disqualify him from being competent or even very good at SS.  It’s a factor, but not determinative by itself.

 

[baltfan]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think people need to realize that a player can be a very good shortstop without having a cannon.  Just looking at this year’s OAA leaders, Dansby Swanson is 2nd at +14 and Francisco Lindor is 3rd at +13.   Yet, Swanson is 39th of 54 listed shortstops in arm strength at 81.4 mph and Lindor is 35th at 81.7.   That’s more than 7 mph slower than Gunnar and Witt, 13-14 mph slower than Oneil Cruz.  

Now, Holliday only averages 77.5 mph at 2B, but his average probably would be considerably higher if he were playing SS.   For example, Dylan Moore is averaging 73.2 when he plays 2B and 77.3 at SS.  The nature of throws at SS are different than 2B; the fielder has better momentum towards 1B a lot of the time.  Therefore, I think it’s quite possible that Holliday would be in the Swanson-Lindor arm strength range if he played SS, and as those two have shown, it’s possible to play very good defense at that level of arm strength.  

To be clear, I’m not saying Holliday would be as good a SS as Swanson or Holliday if he played there.   I’m only saying that his arm strength doesn’t necessarily disqualify him from being competent or even very good at SS.  It’s a factor, but not determinative by itself.

 

People do underestimate the value of a quick release.  Volpe also has a quick release as does Westburg and as did Brooks. I still would prefer the cannon, but guys that have a quick release probably could throw harder but find the quick release more effective.

[Moose Milligan]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think people need to realize that a player can be a very good shortstop without having a cannon.  Just looking at this year’s OAA leaders, Dansby Swanson is 2nd at +14 and Francisco Lindor is 3rd at +13.   Yet, Swanson is 39th of 54 listed shortstops in arm strength at 81.4 mph and Lindor is 35th at 81.7.   That’s more than 7 mph slower than Gunnar and Witt, 13-14 mph slower than Oneil Cruz.  

Now, Holliday only averages 77.5 mph at 2B, but his average probably would be considerably higher if he were playing SS.   For example, Dylan Moore is averaging 73.2 when he plays 2B and 77.3 at SS.  The nature of throws at SS are different than 2B; the fielder has better momentum towards 1B a lot of the time.  Therefore, I think it’s quite possible that Holliday would be in the Swanson-Lindor arm strength range if he played SS, and as those two have shown, it’s possible to play very good defense at that level of arm strength.  

To be clear, I’m not saying Holliday would be as good a SS as Swanson or Holliday if he played there.   I’m only saying that his arm strength doesn’t necessarily disqualify him from being competent or even very good at SS.  It’s a factor, but not determinative by itself.

 

Yeah, no, everyone that we have in the infield must be in the 99th percentile on Statcast for everything.  Jackson "Quck Draw" Holliday?  Get outta here.  

[survivedc]

Some nice double plays from JH the last couple nights. Has shown some nice quickness and athleticism in making them.

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, survivedc said:

Some nice double plays from JH the last couple nights. Has shown some nice quickness and athleticism in making them.

Good point.  He’s looked good on those.  

[Sports Guy]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:05 PM, Frobby said:

I think people need to realize that a player can be a very good shortstop without having a cannon.  Just looking at this year’s OAA leaders, Dansby Swanson is 2nd at +14 and Francisco Lindor is 3rd at +13.   Yet, Swanson is 39th of 54 listed shortstops in arm strength at 81.4 mph and Lindor is 35th at 81.7.   That’s more than 7 mph slower than Gunnar and Witt, 13-14 mph slower than Oneil Cruz.  

Now, Holliday only averages 77.5 mph at 2B, but his average probably would be considerably higher if he were playing SS.   For example, Dylan Moore is averaging 73.2 when he plays 2B and 77.3 at SS.  The nature of throws at SS are different than 2B; the fielder has better momentum towards 1B a lot of the time.  Therefore, I think it’s quite possible that Holliday would be in the Swanson-Lindor arm strength range if he played SS, and as those two have shown, it’s possible to play very good defense at that level of arm strength.  

To be clear, I’m not saying Holliday would be as good a SS as Swanson or Holliday if he played there.   I’m only saying that his arm strength doesn’t necessarily disqualify him from being competent or even very good at SS.  It’s a factor, but not determinative by itself.

 

Of course. We saw it with Hardy. He didn’t have a strong arm.

[glenn__davis]

Unfortunately he's also 3 for his last 28.  And TV pointed out last night he's had at least 1K in every game so far.  

 

[Sports Guy]

19 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

Unfortunately he's also 3 for his last 28.  And TV pointed out last night he's had at least 1K in every game so far.  

 

Yea he has..although some of those Ks were very questionable.

Seems like he’s trying to pull everything right now.

Could also say he’s 3 for his last 19. He had gone 8 straight at bats without a hit and then has 3 hits in his last 19 at bats. 
 

For the month of August, he has a 239/300/522 slash line in 46 at bats.

Edited August 16 by Sports Guy

[baltfan]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea he has..although some of those Ks were very questionable.

Seems like he’s trying to pull everything right now.

Could also say he’s 3 for his last 19. He had gone 8 straight at bats without a hit and then has 3 hits in his last 19 at bats. 
 

For the month of August, he has a 239/300/522 slash line in 46 at bats.

The string of homers might have gotten him a bit pull happy.  I am sure he will adjust.

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, baltfan said:

The string of homers might have gotten him a bit pull happy.  I am sure he will adjust.

Yea that’s my assumption as well.

Edited August 16 by Sports Guy

[SemperFi]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:05 PM, Frobby said:

I think people need to realize that a player can be a very good shortstop without having a cannon.  Just looking at this year’s OAA leaders, Dansby Swanson is 2nd at +14 and Francisco Lindor is 3rd at +13.   Yet, Swanson is 39th of 54 listed shortstops in arm strength at 81.4 mph and Lindor is 35th at 81.7.   That’s more than 7 mph slower than Gunnar and Witt, 13-14 mph slower than Oneil Cruz.  

Now, Holliday only averages 77.5 mph at 2B, but his average probably would be considerably higher if he were playing SS.   For example, Dylan Moore is averaging 73.2 when he plays 2B and 77.3 at SS.  The nature of throws at SS are different than 2B; the fielder has better momentum towards 1B a lot of the time.  Therefore, I think it’s quite possible that Holliday would be in the Swanson-Lindor arm strength range if he played SS, and as those two have shown, it’s possible to play very good defense at that level of arm strength.  

To be clear, I’m not saying Holliday would be as good a SS as Swanson or Holliday if he played there.   I’m only saying that his arm strength doesn’t necessarily disqualify him from being competent or even very good at SS.  It’s a factor, but not determinative by itself.

 

Serious question-for comparison sake a pitch's (pitchers's) velocity is captured roughly 10 feet from release point, but it loses speed as it approaches the plate so a 100 mph pitch is about ~92 mph when measured at the plate.

Again for comparison-can an IF/OF throw be captured as accurately as a pitcher throwing from a somewhat static release point because velocity degrades quickly which is even more evident on a longer throw from the OF, 3B or SS.

 

[Warehouse]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea he has..although some of those Ks were very questionable.

Seems like he’s trying to pull everything right now.

Could also say he’s 3 for his last 19. He had gone 8 straight at bats without a hit and then has 3 hits in his last 19 at bats. 
 

For the month of August, he has a 239/300/522 slash line in 46 at bats.

Even with the questionable calls, his whiff rate has been over 30% since he returned.  In-zone whiff has been 20% and close to 27% in the last week.  The .280 iso in August is unlikely to be sustainable. 

He’s been back about 2 weeks and was very good the first week but not so good the past week.  Hopefully, the first week is more representative of his go-forward performance as he makes adjustments. 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Of course. We saw it with Hardy. He didn’t have a strong arm.

Well, there are limits, and nowadays we have some data by which to measure whether a player is within those limits.   For example, back when Mountcastle was playing SS in the minors, we constantly heard from Tony and others that he didn't have the arm to play SS.  Well, now we know that Mountcastle has a relatively weak arm even for a 1B (average throw 69.4 mph, 37th among 42 1B).   Even accepting that his throws from the left side of the diamond would have considerably higher average velocity than throws from 1B, his arm would simply be unacceptable at SS even if his other skills at the position were good.   But Holliday is in the range that can be acceptable if other skills are good.

As to Hardy, I don't think his arm was that weak.   Probably solid major league average for a SS.  Bordick, I would say, was probably a bit below average in arm strength.   Both of them knew how to compensate for not having an upper-tier arm.