In regards to guys like Pie and Penn....

[Sports Guy]

I have a bias against "toolsy" players who do not know how to actually play the game. Pie has reportedly refused to shorten his swing, has bad plate discipline and is a bad basestealer. It offends me that simply because someone is more physically gifted they can get away with not learning how to play the game properly.

Now I am not promoting grit over ability here but if Pie has not fixed these issues with his game by now, I find it very unlikely he will with the O's.

Well putting the rest aside...Quite simply, if you recognize the talents of the player and we aren't winning anything this year, why not accept him with open arms and be happy he is out there playing every day?

[Sports Guy]

I don't know what business you are in but in the business I am in if you are brought in on a trial basis and do not perform, then they really don't care what you did at your last job. They tend to say next and move on.

There is a time to stand up, step forward, and be counted, if you really want people to support you.

Small sample? Life is full of small samples. It is sometimes all you get and you better make the best of it before the door hits you in the butt.

LOL...Well, if your business has been pathetic for 11 years and you bring in some very good young blood and get rid of them after a month because they have had poor results, chances are you just found out the reason you have been pathetic for so long.

(btw, these types of analogies are just so poor..can't stand it when people use them...we are obviously talking about vastly different things)

[tywright]

Who cares???

The point is we have a spot for him now and we should be seeing what he can give us.

Well that's why we're going to carry 13 players. Penn and Simon/Bass will be splitting the longman/5th role. Eventually we're not going to be carrying 13 pitchers and as of right now, Penn is the odd man out.

The point is Penn should not deserve a rotation spot. If there was any...ANY...competition then he would be passed through waivers.

Also don't forget, AM has no sentimental ties to Penn's past success.

[Moose Milligan]

I have a bias against "toolsy" players who do not know how to actually play the game. Pie has reportedly refused to shorten his swing, has bad plate discipline and is a bad basestealer. It offends me that simply because someone is more physically gifted they can get away with not learning how to play the game properly.

Now I am not promoting grit over ability here but if Pie has not fixed these issues with his game by now, I find it very unlikely he will with the O's.

So who's to say they can't improve?

IMO, its pretty silly to have a bias against "toolsy" players with the assumption that they'll never learn how to play the game "properly".

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't know what business you are in but in the business I am in if you are brought in on a trial basis and do not perform, then they really don't care what you did at your last job. They tend to say next and move on.

There is a time to stand up, step forward, and be counted, if you really want people to support you.

Small sample? Life is full of small samples. It is sometimes all you get and you better make the best of it before the door hits you in the butt.

So you're in favor of making snap decisions based on tiny bits of data because, you know, that kind of stuff happens in other jobs.

[wildcard]

LOL...Well, if your business has been pathetic for 11 years and you bring in some very good young blood and get rid of them after a month because they have had poor results, chances are you just found out the reason you have been pathetic for so long.

(btw, these types of analogies are just so poor..can't stand it when people use them...we are obviously talking about vastly different things)

Penn is not done yet. He may be battling Simon for a place in the pen. You want to talk about someone that has earned nothing off his minor league career. That would be Simon.

Pie will get alot of time on the team. The O's traded a sandwich pick for him. He will probably be with the O's all year. How much playing time he gets will depend on what he does with the time he gets.

As Wigginton said about not having a regular position on the team. 'If I hit they will find a place for me.' Pie should spend some time with Wiggy.

[DrungoHazewood]

I have a bias against "toolsy" players who do not know how to actually play the game. Pie has reportedly refused to shorten his swing, has bad plate discipline and is a bad basestealer. It offends me that simply because someone is more physically gifted they can get away with not learning how to play the game properly.

Now I am not promoting grit over ability here but if Pie has not fixed these issues with his game by now, I find it very unlikely he will with the O's.

I know I was a completely finished product in every single way by the time I was 23. Same for everyone else I know, too.

I have a bias against people who think stolen base percentage is representative of one's unwillingness to put forth an effort to improve themselves. Basically you're saying Felix Pie is a lazy bum who can't be bothered to polish his game because he's athletic but has poor plate discipline and ability to read a pitcher's moves.

[wildcard]

So you're in favor of making snap decisions based on tiny bits of data because, you know, that kind of stuff happens in other jobs.

I am almost always in favor on people getting what they earn.

[tywright]

I'm just concerned that he has ties to any possible future success.

Penn would be an interesting setup man option in the future. Perfect example of taking advantage of this is Jim Johnson.

I just don't see him being consistent enough to get through the order 2-3 times a night.

[Lucky Jim]

I know I was a completely finished product in every single way by the time I was 23. Same for everyone else I know, too.

Well, not everyone can be Old Fan, right? Constantly growing and learning into old age...

[tvz1997]

I've been dancing around this all day, but I just think that Penn's problems are in his head. That is the notion from which most of my comments have come all day. This doesn't make me think that we should write him off, but to me, it diminishes his promise. I don't know the guy and I do feel for his struggles, but that's just how it seems to me. The way he fell apart today seems like just the sort of thing that would happen to Hayden Penn (not his fault - just made a couple of mistakes, got no backup from the team, and the wheels just fell off).

Having said that, I don't think it will do Penn any good to throw him to the wolves in the MLB rotation and I don't think being the 13th pitcher will do much to help him work things out with his confidence/consistency/whatever. At this point, to me, Penn is the "devil you know" until he proves otherwise. I would love to see him pass through waivers and get one more chance in Norfolk, but other pitchers are soon going to pass him by and that is good news to me.

As for Pie/Pauley/Eaton, those are guys that other teams couldn't wait on any longer and so now they are our experiment. That's fine, we have the time for SOME of that this year.

I think a lot of us are anxious to get to the point where we don't have to place our hopes in dark horses to hold down important positions on our team. Hopefully, it won't be long.

[Jagwar]

..and others like them...Why are some of you so against give them a true chance?

Seems like their is some angst towards these guys being on the roster...Why?

I think the O's should just stick Penn in the rotation, give him an extended shot. If he doesn't show success after say, 7-8 starts, try to slip him through waivers.

Can he do any worse than Olson did last year?

[Delduck]

..and others like them...Why are some of you so against give them a true chance?

Seems like their is some angst towards these guys being on the roster...Why?

Not that I am for or against either of them making the team, and I really have little to no opinion on the subject, but could you defend you stance on this. Maybe a little detail as to why you believe they have "earned it" so others with an open mind could be convinced they deserve to be here despite their poor performance. I would hope they both turn it around and earn their spots, but right now from what I have read they would have a hard time justifying being on the team.

[Sports Guy]

Not that I am for or against either of them making the team, and I really have little to no opinion on the subject, but could you defend you stance on this. Maybe a little detail as to why you believe they have "earned it" so others with an open mind could be convinced they deserve to be here despite their poor performance. I would hope they both turn it around and earn their spots, but right now from what I have read they would have a hard time justifying being on the team.

I don't care about ST performance.

These guys have shown a ton of ability in the minors. Both have been top prospects...Pie moreso.

We are a team that is likely a 75ish win team, give or take...There is no reason why these guys shouldn't be given every chance to show whether they belong or not.

Even if their ML chances, they haven't been sustained and have been at very young ages.

I think people forget just how young these guys are now and how young they were when they had their "chances".

[Can_of_corn]

I missed that report. Where did you read that?

Nick Markakis is not a good basestealer. Maybe he just doesn't want to learn to be any good at it.

That was the word out of Chicago last year.

Pie who clearly has better speed then Nick is a 63% base stealer in the minors. Nick stole at a 73% clip in the minors. I also think that if Nick can't keep his rate over 70% he shouldn't run very often either.