Shutting Guthrie Down

[Sports Guy]

Frobby, if you never saw Guthrie pitch and just looked at his MiL stats, scouting reports and age, what would you think about him?

[Sports Guy]

Right. IF we had never seen him pitch, we'd be much more inclined, probably even agree 100%, that those two months were a complete fluke. But we DID see him pitch, and he flashed a 96-97 mph fastball and a sharp breaking pitch (at times), and plus command. Still could be a fluke but his stuff is too good to ignore. Haven't your predicted great things for Daniel Cabrera? What great season did he have in the minor leagues? How about Loewen? What full season did he ever put together? Yet you judge those guys and stuff and potential. Sure those guys are/were younger than Guthrie but Guthrie also took 2 years off from baseball.

Minor League numbers? Command rate? Aren't you the one you discards those when predicting Loewen's future? Loewen's minor league walk rate is 5.22/9IP and his ML walke rate is 5.55. What's your argument on Loewen becoming an ace or a #2 starter?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/Adam-Loewen.shtml

You do see that the age difference right? You do see the steady progression and improvement right?

Tell me you aren't that dense to not recognize those things.

[Sports Guy]

BTW, Loewen and DCab have better stuff and more consistent secondary(well not this year for DCAB) pitches than Guthrie does.

And let's not forget that Loewen had some of his development halted early on due to the labrum issue.

[Moose Milligan]

BTW, Loewen and DCab have better stuff and more consistent secondary(well not this year for DCAB) pitches than Guthrie does.

And let's not forget that Loewen had some of his development halted early on due to the labrum issue.

I think Guthrie had some of his development time halted early on due to his Mormon mission stuff.

But I guess that doesn't count since it wasn't an injury.

[Sports Guy]

I mentioned the age difference bucko! Reading comprehension ain't your bag. I see awful walk rates that have progressed to just bad in Cabrera's case. I see awful walk rates that have progressed to just as awful at the ML level for Loewen. Are those the numbers you have used to predict #1 or #2 starter status for either or both?

Nope but in Loewen's case, i was seeing progress. DCab has taken the step back.

[Sports Guy]

So when the minor league numbers aren't so great you revert to talking about stuff. LOL

Wrong again...You are good at that btw...Just pointing out that if you just want to look at stuff, i give the edge to others.

Only a fool would use the phrase consistent secondary stuff and Daniel Cabrera in the same sentence. Congratulations!

When that curve is going, it makes Guthrie's secondary pitches look like yours.

But, as i said, that isn't the case this year because his curve is off big time for some reason.

[Hank Scorpio]

So when the minor league numbers aren't so great you revert to talking about stuff. LOL

Only a fool would use the phrase consistent secondary stuff and Daniel Cabrera in the same sentence. Congratulations!

Cabrera's secondary stuff includes his curveball, his curveball and his curveball... and he can't consistently locate any of those three pitches.

Jury's still out on Loewen, but I think that Guthrie's secondary stuff is somewhere inbetween these two.

Guthrie's two seam fastball is just as good as either of these two.

[Sports Guy]

I think Guthrie had some of his development time halted early on due to his Mormon mission stuff.

But I guess that doesn't count since it wasn't an injury.

Sure it can be taken into account...But he is still a 26 y/o pitcher then.

BTW, he has pitched, at least, every year since 2001. Not sure when his mormon mission was but i think it is getting ot the point where that is more of an excuse than anything that is valid....It was a while ago.

I would bet, even with those 2 years off, that Guthrie has thrown a lot more innings and pitches than DCab has.

[Sports Guy]

Cabrera's secondary stuff includes his curveball, his curveball and his curveball... and he can't consistently locate any of those three pitches.

Jury's still out on Loewen, but I think that Guthrie's secondary stuff is somewhere inbetween these two.

Guthrie's two seam fastball is just as good as either of these two.

And Guthrie can?

[Sports Guy]

Consistent secondary stuff means that a guy can consistently throw it for strikes. When has that ever been the case for Cabrera, except for a game here and there. That in of itself is the very meaning of the word inconsistency which (and this is just for the slow people (SG), is the very opposite of consistent.

DCab doesn't have to throw that curve for a strike for it to be a plus pitch.

[Moose Milligan]

DCab doesn't have to throw that curve for a strike for it to be a plus pitch.

No, but it sure as hell would help.

D-Cab throwing anything for a strike consistently would help.

[Moose Milligan]

Are you trying to break the record for dumb comments in one thread. You win already. Enough buddy!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RZNJ again.

[Hank Scorpio]

And Guthrie can?

Well, I tried my damndest to find a site that tells you how often they throw their breaking balls for strikes, but couldn't. I'm willing to bet you hitters have a lower BA vs. Guthrie's slider then Cabrera's.

Not sure about the % of strikes, though.

[Hank Scorpio]

If you have ESPN insider - opponents are batting a whopping .108 off Guthrie's slider.

.172 off Cabrera's. (They refer to his breaking ball as his slider).

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/players/insider?playerId=5370

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/players/insider?playerId=5961

So, in terms of getting people out, I'd say Guthrie's slider is more consistent given that he walks far fewer batters.

[Sports Guy]

Yep, that's been working at really well. Yoooohooooo! You have to be ahead in the count to get guys to chase the bad breaking pitches. It also helps if you throw the bad breakers in purpose in a place where you intend to throw it.

Well i have said twice that this year he doesn't have the curve.