Even if you don't blame Trembley...

[Marc Spector]

The question should not be "has he done something bad enough to warrant being let go?" If his contract went beyond this year, that would be the case. But his contract is up. Right now the Orioles have no one under contract for 2010 to manage the team. The ONLY question MacPhail should be asking is, WHO is the best man I can get for the job in 2010? The job is vacant until someone is offered and signs a 2010 contract. If he believes Trembley is the answer to that question, then fine, he should absolutely offer him a new contract. But ONLY if he believes that. By framing the question the way you have (has Trembley done anything so bad as to not deserve to come back?), you are saying you don't want the Orioles to have the best manager possible next year.

Would you say that about any other position on the team? Would you say that the Orioles should not even consider trying to find a really good utility infielder next year because Andino has done nothing horrible enough to warrant being replaced? Of course not. You would look to field the best possible team. Obviosuly budget is an issue so if another manager cost ten times Trembley but was only, in your mind, a little better, you might not make the move. But he shouldn't get special treatment that any player doesn't get....I want the Orioles to find the best possible person for every position next year, given realistic financial constraints and longerm talent issues, etc....that means third base, closer, utility infielder, or manager. No one should automatically retain their job just because they "didn't screw up so badly".

Excellent argument Steve.....

[Bradysburns]

We went 19-36 through July and August when we had our full complement before we went 6-16. The excuses have to stop sometime.

Trembley simply is not a good manager and is not the right guy to take this team to the next level.

I'm sorry, but our "full complement" sucked from day one.

Who was our starting rotation? Guthrie, an injured Japanese relief pitcher-turned-starter, and a handful of other guys, including Adam Eaton? Guthrie himself was a Rule 5 pick, and could very well be the next Rodrigo Lopez.

Baez also had a prominent role in the pen in the first half. C'mon.

The team was not built to succeed on the field this year, from Opening Day to now. While we do have lots of young talent, there are no guarantees any of that talent will be elite at the MLB level, until they actually do it.

I happen to like DT - I just like the way his jaw always looks like it's about to explode off his skull - he's got a quiet intensity about him. And while he's made some questionable decisions with the pen, etc., I really think a lot of that has to do with a lack of talent to play with.

Remember, too, that the kind of manager people seem to favor would be embodied by someone like Mike Hargrove. Grover would not have won many, if any, more games than DT did this year with the same roster.

In fact, we've gone down that road before.

It has always looked like a rebuilding roster to me. AM indicated more than once that this was a rebuilding year.

[geschinger]

If I were AM I would want to bring DT back because he is a guy who is basically on the same page with me. He has the respect of the team, he is willing to work with what I give him. Next year is a transition year from rebuilding to competing. While I plan to add some upgrades over the winter, I do not envision the team being in contention. Not many managers of the LaRussa, Scioscia, Cox, Leyland ilk, would be wiling to work with me on those terms. DT has been a good soldier so far for me, and he is fine for what I need next season. After that we'll see. You have to remember I am the guy who is running the show here, much like Beane in Oakland, and not any manager is going to be comfortable working with in those strictures.

That should definately be part of the calculus. If MacPhail feels like he doesn't have a better option and wants to give it another year to evaluate what he has in DT that is fine w/me. I'm kind of at the point where I would lean slightly towards going in a different direction but won't mind at all if he's back (as long its only a short term commitment) with the idea of reevalutiong later. I would say that I don't think he has earned a multiyear extension and would be disappointed if he was given one.

[Crazysilver03]

I'm sorry, but our "full complement" sucked from day one.

Who was our starting rotation? Guthrie, an injured Japanese relief pitcher-turned-starter, and a handful of other guys, including Adam Eaton? Guthrie himself was a Rule 5 pick, and could very well be the next Rodrigo Lopez.

Guthrie was claimed off waivers, not selected in the Rule 5 draft. He was only placed on waivers because he had limited himself to four years of development due to signing a major league contract.

Koji was a starter for most of his career sans 2007/2008.

[Boy Howdy]

I think SteveA has hit the nail on the head with all of his posts in this thread.

I look at it like this. Only 17 men in history have been entrusted with managing the Orioles since they returned big league ball to Baltimore in 1954. Since Lum Harris merely finished up the end of 1961, it's really 16 guys who've steered the ship.

Dave Trembley's managed more than 400 major league games here. More than Jimmy Dykes. More than Billy Hitchcock. More than freakin' Joe Altobelli, who only won a World Series. More than Cal Ripken, Sr. More than Phil Regan. More than Davey Johnson, for whom making the playoffs every year he was here wasn't good enough. More than Ray Miller. More than Sam Perlozzo. More than Lee Mazzilli.

Life isn't fair to begin with, but I'm really weary of hearing the moaning about the hand he's been dealt. Only six men have ever managed more Baltimore Orioles games than Dave Trembley.

[Agent0]

It's hard to make a really compelling case for him. I am not a big critic of DT, but whatever he's done, it hasn't really worked. If AM wants to try someone else, it's not going to offend me.

I'm surprised that more people haven't taken this perspective long before this.

I'll repeat what I've been saying on different boards for the last 25 months or so.....

I was never in favor of hiring DT the way we did. Not that I don't respect him. I like the fact that he re-instituted infield practice. I like the way he deals with the media. I like the respect he has for the game and I assume that rubs off on his players in terms of how hard they play. However, I didn't think that his 26-24 record in 2007 (or something similar) was so impressive that it warranted giving him the job "permanently". Sure, let him interview in the offseason and survive a full scale search but to give him the job right then without looking at anyone else who might have been available? At the time, I thought it was a strange move.

Now, like you once said: in AM I trust....but....if you're going to give the guy the job, commit to him. AM didn't: DT has basically been a lame duck for 2.5 years. The only thing that made ANY sense to me was this: in 8/07 our farm system and roster was so bad, AM just wanted a guy who would show them how to be professionals and play hard, leaving actual strategy and approaches somewhat secondary.

..but now it's 2.5 years later. It's time to start realizing some potential in the win column. At this point, I do think that AM is more discriminating about who the manager is and at this point, DT simply hasn't done anything to compel AM to bring him back. It's that simple. Say what you want to about what DT brings to the table. Do you really think there's much risk in trying something else at this point?

[Boy Howdy]

Even if our 2009 Orioles win all of their remaining games, they will tie a dubious club record by having a worse won-lost mark than the previous year for five consecutive seasons.

The only other time the Orioles did it was 1984-88.

[SteveA]

Even if our 2009 Orioles win all of their remaining games, they will tie a dubious club record by having a worse won-lost mark than the previous year for five consecutive seasons.

The only other time the Orioles did it was 1984-88.

I'd like to think it won't happen 6 straight years.

But I'm sure at this point this year, when our record had declined four straight years, NO ONE here believed it would happen this year. But somehow it did.

[JTrea81]

I'd like to think it won't happen 6 straight years.

But I'm sure at this point this year, when our record had declined four straight years, NO ONE here believed it would happen this year. But somehow it did.

It's up to MacPhail to make sure that doesn't happen.

He's seen what little to no effort in the offseason can produce.

Now he needs to step it up.

[byrdz]

It's up to MacPhail to make sure that doesn't happen.

He's seen what little to no effort in the offseason can produce.

Now he needs to step it up.

Yeah becsaue that's what AM lacks, effort.

[ledzepp8]

It's up to MacPhail to make sure that doesn't happen.

He's seen what little to no effort in the offseason can produce.

Now he needs to step it up.

Another perfect example of why people don't take what you say seriously.

[Roll Tide]

Yeah becsaue that's what AM lacks, effort.

I think it all goes back to what you bring in... I dont think anyone can question AM's work ethic. I think the bottom line is the Orioles need quality not quanity.

Basically...... Add a Lackey, & Trade for a legit #4 hitter (1B or 3B)

Rather than signing a Wiggington & a Looper type pitcher.

[scOtt]

I think SteveA has hit the nail on the head with all of his posts in this thread.

I look at it like this. Only 17 men in history have been entrusted with managing the Orioles since they returned big league ball to Baltimore in 1954. Since Lum Harris merely finished up the end of 1961, it's really 16 guys who've steered the ship.

Dave Trembley's managed more than 400 major league games here. More than Jimmy Dykes. More than Billy Hitchcock. More than freakin' Joe Altobelli, who only won a World Series. More than Cal Ripken, Sr. More than Phil Regan. More than Davey Johnson, for whom making the playoffs every year he was here wasn't good enough. More than Ray Miller. More than Sam Perlozzo. More than Lee Mazzilli.

Life isn't fair to begin with, but I'm really weary of hearing the moaning about the hand he's been dealt. Only six men have ever managed more Baltimore Orioles games than Dave Trembley.

I've posted this about 587 times on here... continuity. I'm not naive enough to think Dave is perfect, but I think he is PLENTY adequate enough right now. In a year, or two, if he isn't cutting it, axe him. But right now, I say keep things continuous. Let all our hopes come into ST focused on THEIR continued development, not on learning a new manager, and PC, and whole new staff.

[Tony-OH]

..but now it's 2.5 years later. It's time to start realizing some potential in the win column. At this point, I do think that AM is more discriminating about who the manager is and at this point, DT simply hasn't done anything to compel AM to bring him back. It's that simple. Say what you want to about what DT brings to the table. Do you really think there's much risk in trying something else at this point?

Honestly, this is the kind ridiculous thought process that's mind boggling. do you have any idea of what's going on? The Orioles are in a full force rebuilding process that AM has performed very slowly and methodically. AM traded his best reliever and his top hitter from a year before. The Orioles had four rookies make eight or more starts. We have a bullpen with one reliever with an ERA under 5.00. We lost our left fielder and center fielder, and our current third baseman has a .671 OPS in over 465 PAs.

We have one hitter with more than 20 home runs. We play in the toughest Division in baseball.

Despite all of this, you are looking for wins? Really? This team is currently pitiful. Our pitching staff is decimated or filled with terribly inconsistent relievers.

Judging Dave Trembley by wins and losses is ridiculous.

[geschinger]

I've posted this about 587 times on here... continuity. I'm not naive enough to think Dave is perfect, but I think he is PLENTY adequate enough right now. In a year, or two, if he isn't cutting it, axe him. But right now, I say keep things continuous. Let all our hopes come into ST focused on THEIR continued development, not on learning a new manager, and PC, and whole new staff.

If MacPhail thinks DT is the man for this team going forward or is unsure then it makes sense. But if MacPhail doesn't think he's the right guy to take this team to the next level wouldn't it be better to bring the guy in who he thinks is that person instead of breaking continuity when this team is ready to contend by bringing in another manager?