MacPhail Claims O's Had No Chance to Match Offer for VMart

[Moose Milligan]

The very nature of this situation refutes your opinion. They never came back to the Orioles with a chance to beat Detroit's offer.

If you go on a date with a chick and she doesn't call you back, she doesn't like you. Move along. It's not an excuse it is a FACT. Do you really believe the Orioles knew what Detroit had offered Martinez? Do you agree that 4/48 for a meh first baseman is an aggressive offer?

Spot on.

Twenty bucks says he won't even address this comment because it's dead on.

Spot on.

[Hank Scorpio]

If you want to use this excuse to let MacPhail off the hook for his inability to sign top free agents, fine.

Please excuse him for not offering arbitration then to get FREE draft picks.

Please excuse him for not spending money in international scouting.

Please excuse him for not aggressively pursuing trades to help fill positions of need.

I am SO sick of the excuses for MacPhail. If people want to say that ANGELOS is the reason he is handcuffed, fine. But that doesn't excuse his inability to do these other things. MacPhail has FAILED to make this team better in his 3+ years here, and I don't see that changing this offseason either. Enough is enough, and its time for a change!

I disagree with the bolded, this team is in a much better position than it was 3 years ago. It's young, talented and cheap.

I do, however, question his ability to add to it. He appears fairly incapable of that.

[TiredofLosing20]

The very nature of this situation refutes your opinion. They never came back to the Orioles with a chance to beat Detroit's offer.

If you go on a date with a chick and she doesn't call you back, she doesn't like you. Move along. It's not an excuse it is a FACT. Do you really believe the Orioles knew what Detroit had offered Martinez? Do you agree that 4/48 for a meh first baseman is an aggressive offer?

The point I think JTrea is making is that it is time to start making a better first impression. I tend to agree as it is clear to anyone watching that we will need to overwhelm someone to come here. The fact that he was waiting for them to get back to him makes it seem to me that he was willing to go higher. I typically agree with this type of negotiation but its not working because players don't want to come here.

To me this discussion isn't about Martinez specifically and the offer made to him it is the negotiating strategy that is problematic. I didn't really want VMart. If AM was willing to go to say 4/52 or 4/55 then thats what he should have offered. If that wasn't enough then you move on but we are way past offering something and expecting to hear back. Its time to start putting our best offer (or damn near it) on the table because it is clear that we are not going to get the chance to give our best offer down the road.

[Hank Scorpio]

I'll ask again:

Do you agree that 4/48 is an aggressive offer for Victor Martinez if you're not granted the luxury of knowing what everyone else has offered?

[DrungoHazewood]

McPhail has many detractors in this site. He can't land the big one or can't booze and scmooze players. However continually through multiple GM's we keep hearing the same thing

THEY DON'T WANT TO COME HERE.

Whether its confederate money or not being able to match offers it always comes down to they don't want to come here.

One thing will change that. Turning this team around from the inside and it isn't going to happen overnight. We have a manager who I think can help do that. Throwing a ton of money at a free agent isn't going to convince them to come here until the perception of this team changes.

If we can pickup a few good(not great) players with the core we have we might be able to do that this season. If we can then maybe we can be in the bidding for Feildler and Gonzales as free agents next year.

Excellent post. You speak the truth.

It's just a lame excuse that nobody should buy into. The Orioles have never tried hard enough under MacPhail to change anybody's mind.

Carlos Beltran didn't want to be a Met, CC Sabathia didn't want to be a Yankee. Good teams figure out how to overcome players not wanting to come to their team.

I wonder if you'd be throwing around 10 year deals for a $quarter-billion like they were made of Monopoly money if your job was on the line?

Only in your world is "trying hard enough" defined as going completely, absurdly over the top to acquire assets that aren't remotely likely to pay off.

[Hank Scorpio]

The point I think JTrea is making is that it is time to start making a better first impression. I tend to agree as it is clear to anyone watching that we will need to overwhelm someone to come here. The fact that he was waiting for them to get back to him makes it seem to me that he was willing to go higher. I typically agree with this type of negotiation but its not working because players don't want to come here.

To me this discussion isn't about Martinez specifically and the offer made to him it is the negotiating strategy that is problematic. I didn't really want VMart. If AM was willing to go to say 4/52 or 4/55 then thats what he should have offered. If that wasn't enough then you move on but we are way past offering something and expecting to hear back. Its time to start putting our best offer (or damn near it) on the table because it is clear that we are not going to get the chance to give our best offer on the table down the road.

I get it, but this thread is specifically about the Martinez situation.

So... I'm on record as saying 4/$48 is representative of my highest offer. That's HIGHER than my highest offer. MacPhail certainly didn't embarrass himself with the offer.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'll ask again:

Do you agree that 4/48 is an aggressive offer for Victor Martinez if you're not granted the luxury of knowing what everyone else has offered?

I think it's at least $8M more than he'll likely be worth to the Orioles, so yea.

But I guess there's some truth to the idea that they needed to value him like a team that was going to use him as a catcher, and they needed to add the O's tax on top, so they should have expected it would take about $60M or so to get him in Black and Orange. That's a terrible idea for the O's, but that should have been the expectation.

[scOtt]

It's just a lame excuse that nobody should buy into. The Orioles have never tried hard enough under MacPhail to change anybody's mind.

Carlos Beltran didn't want to be a Met, CC Sabathia didn't want to be a Yankee. Good teams figure out how to overcome players not wanting to come to their team.

Says you.

characters

[scOtt]

The O's are not a good team. Players aren't typically going to come back to the bad team that made a mediocre offer and hope they can beat the offer from a good team. If you determine that Player X is your top FA target, then make him your best offer right away. Don't low ball him first and hope he comes back to you later. If you really want a player and view him as a difference maker, then go get him.

I'm not saying I really wanted to get Vmart, but it sounds like AM and Buck did. If that was the case, it sounds like they didn't try hard enough.

How is 2 million less than he signed for, 10 DAYS AGO, lowballing? And then his agent wouldn't even listen to another offer.

I'm leary on VMart at 4/48, but I am in no way thinking we lowballed him. Sorry my friend, but you are just wrong!

[TiredofLosing20]

I get it, but this thread is specifically about the Martinez situation.

So... I'm on record as saying 4/$48 is representative of my highest offer. That's HIGHER than my highest offer. MacPhail certainly didn't embarrass himself with the offer.

Oh, completely agree. 4/48 is a great offer for Martinez and it does show that they are willing to spend this year. I will go on record and say I would have offered him less. It doesn't however change the fact that reportedly Martinez was a top priority and AM attempted to negotiate this the way everyone else does. Put an offer out that you are willing to improve on and expect there to be some back in forth. That does not appear to be working.

My critique is not the offer (other than it was higher than I would have gone) it is more the fact that AM still believes he is going to get a chance to counter. I surely hope that if they are serious about Beltre they don't use this same approach.

[Hank Scorpio]

Where's Buck in all of this?

I thought he had a relationship with Martinez in Cleveland? I thought Buck was out there actively recruiting free agents? So... if Buck was actively recruiting Victor Martinez, and MacPhail put out an offer of $12MM a year for 4 years, how did we get here?

[scOtt]

I disagree with the bolded, this team is in a much better position than it was 3 years ago. It's young, talented and cheap.

I do, however, question his ability to add to it. He appears fairly incapable of that.

*sigh*

I'm closer and closer.

[Going Underground]

I think it was a longshot to sign VMart. Other teams with better chances were in the mix. We would have had to overbid and the O's are not that team.

A report in Venezuela’s El Nacional mentioned the Red Sox, White Sox and Orioles as the losing bidders for free-agent catcher Victor Martinez, but the Rangers also were in “big,” a major-league source said.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/new-york-yankees-treatment-of-derek-jeter-is-puzzling-112310

[Nigel Tufnel]

Oh, completely agree. 4/48 is a great offer for Martinez and it does show that they are willing to spend this year. I will go on record and say I would have offered him less. It doesn't however change the fact that reportedly Martinez was a top priority and AM attempted to negotiate this the way everyone else does. Put an offer out that you are willing to improve on and expect there to be some back in forth. That does not appear to be working.

My critique is not the offer (other than it was higher than I would have gone) it is more the fact that AM still believes he is going to get a chance to counter. I surely hope that if they are serious about Beltre they don't use this same approach.

Yep, I find it disturbing that Martinez was their top target, and I find it disturbing that they thought 4/48 would be enough. I'm actually not sure which blunder I find more disturbing.

[TiredofLosing20]

Here are some of my thoughts on this:

• I believe the 4/48 was an aggressive offer and not lowballing
  
• I do think it indicates that the O's are willing to spend some money this year
  
• I don't think the Treasians of the board can use this as an example of a "token" offer
  
• I think it does dispel some of the notion that AM is not willing to spend money on FAs
  
• Lastly, it reinforces some of my fear that AM is going to struggle to actually sign top shelf FAs