Millar on Anita Marks

[mdguy2415]

VA Tech - I agree with your reasoning 100%. I pretty much do only care what ballplayers or any athlete for that matter does on the field, court or wherever. If an athlete goes out their way to help and improve the lives of others like Roberts does, or is an engaging personality like Eric Byrnes of the Diamondbacks, we as fans and the sporting world is better for it.

However, just because an athlete wears a uniform or plays in a region I live in does not mean that I should expect more out of him or her off the field just because they play a sport and I root for them.

For those who question some of us who may not care what Millar did, what makes a fan or who is worthy of fandom?

It is a person who has season tickets, or spends their hard earned money on team gear, or someone who roots for their team through thick and thin?

Then again, it is someone who sits in the stands and roots for their team whether they are up 3-0, or down 8-0? Is it the guy who appears in the stadium with war paint on or the guy in a business suit?

It is someone who pays for the $45 tickets or the $9 tickets?

We are all on this website because we are fans and appreciate the Orioles; however, in life and in most any discussion, we all will not agree on a given topic.

Some of us may not want to invest our emotions over Kevin Millar, or are highly upset that he participated in the Red Sox ALCS festivities and appeared on Fox; therefore, it does not make anyone on either side of the spectrum any less than a fan of the black and orange.

[Dipper9]

VA Tech - I agree with your reasoning 100%. I pretty much do only care what ballplayers or any athlete for that matter does on the field, court or wherever. If an athlete goes out their way to help and improve the lives of others like Roberts does, or is an engaging personality like Eric Byrnes of the Diamondbacks, we as fans and the sporting world is better for it.

However, just because an athlete wears a uniform or plays in a region I live in does not mean that I should expect more out of him or her off the field just because they play a sport and I root for them.

For those who question some of us who may not care what Millar did, what makes a fan or who is worthy of fandom?

It is a person who has season tickets, or spends their hard earned money on team gear, or someone who roots for their team through thick and thin?

Then again, it is someone who sits in the stands and roots for their team whether they are up 3-0, or down 8-0? Is it the guy who appears in the stadium with war paint on or the guy in a business suit?

It is someone who pays for the $45 tickets or the $9 tickets?

We are all on this website because we are fans and appreciate the Orioles; however, in life and in most any discussion, we all will not agree on a given topic.

Some of us may not want to invest our emotions over Kevin Millar, or are highly upset that he participated in the Red Sox ALCS festivities and appeared on Fox; therefore, it does not make anyone on either side of the spectrum any less than a fan of the black and orange.

And finally we have a voice of reason! I think my heart grew three times today!

[Wingman]

Oh man, where do I start here.

From above, number 2. No fans, no team? Oh really? I think you have that wrong. No fans..no Baltimore team. Go ask the Colts about that! Its fans who worry about these tiny indiscretions that ruin a popular player's reputation in the community. Go ask Eddie Murray about that!

From above, number 3. Why did this decision have to have anything at all to do with improving the Orioles organization? Why can it not just be someone's boss (MacPhail) letting their employee (Millar) go to something fun? My boss has allowed me to go to my kids school to see their Christmas concert. That decision has YET to do any good for the organization for which I work. But GD it sure was a nice thing for my boss to do, and it improved my morale with the company!

From number 1 in the lower section. Players do NOT owe their entire living to the fans. Baseball would exist with or without Kevin Millar. Its his talent that he OWES his living to. Love him or hate him, but there are only a select few people in the world with the talent to play professional sports, and he is one of them. He gives his best effort when on the field, and has also "entertained" the fans with his antics in Baltimore. However, he does NOT have to live every moment of his life for the fans! Its people like you with that kind of thinking that chase movie stars around with cameras shoved in their faces. Its that kind fo thnking that causes people in the spotlight to turn to drugs and alcohol to get away from it all. I'm sorry, but just because a man plays for my team doesn't give me the right to dictate what he does and does not do in every aspect of his life. If he wants to be a Steelers fan, more power to him. If he wants to root for the Red Sox when HIS team is not playing, then so be it. I have maintained my cool as long as I could, but people who want to dictate that players should live their lives for THE FANS is just BS and makes me really angry!

Sorry, players do owe their living entirely to the fans... It's really not debateable. Their salary doesn't come from thin air or an owners generosity it comes from fans who buy tickets/merchandise etc. Nobody here that doesn't like what Millar did is wrong isn't trying to control every aspect of his life. In fact, if Millar privately called every member of the BoSox and told them he was rooting for them I would have no problem with it. The problem I had is that he did it publicly...

I understand that some of you thought it was no big deal but telling those of us who do that we have no leg to stand on isn't reasonable. If we have no justification how come not one of the 7865 posts on this subject.... (or the national/local media) has chastized the Mets for not letting Pedro participate??? If letting Millar participate was ABSOLUTELY no big deal, than the opposite (not letting a player be a part of this) is by definition petty and unfair to the player/Red Sox.

[Dipper9]

I'm not going to get hip deep in this again, but I've got to respond just once more. You're missing the point. AM probably gave his permission because he thought it was the right thing to do. Not all people have to have a WIIFM (what's in it for me) to do something.

It appears to me that Andy did this, despite the fact that it might upset some people and had virtually no Oriole WIIFM, because he thought it was the right thing to do for the game. That is the point. You seem to only want to look at this argument as if Andy is a marketing executive. He isn't. His job is to make decisions that he believes are correct. He should consider public opinion, but that shouldn't be the only measure of this decision.

I don't have any problem with you considering it only from the WIIFM perspective, but you're wrong when you conclude that EVERYONE (including AM) should have considered it from only this perspective. We can debate whether it was the right thing to do or not, but considering the proposition only relative to fan perception is missing a large part of the debate.

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make. Thanks VaTech! Its not always about the WIIFM, especially when there is no REAL disadvantage to allowing Millar to do what he did. plus, the OWNER also approved. So, Millar's boss and boss's boss approved of this, but WE the fans are supposed to be upset? Not me...pass!

[Dipper9]

Sorry, players do owe their living entirely to the fans... It's really not debateable. Their salary doesn't come from thin air or an owners generosity it comes from fans who buy tickets/merchandise etc. Nobody here that doesn't like what Millar did is wrong isn't trying to control every aspect of his life. In fact, if Millar privately called every member of the BoSox and told them he was rooting for them I would have no problem with it. The problem I had is that he did it publicly...

I understand that some of you thought it was no big deal but telling those of us who do that we have no leg to stand on isn't reasonable. If we have no justification how come not one of the 7865 posts on this subject.... (or the national/local media) has chastized the Mets for not letting Pedro participate??? If letting Millar participate was ABSOLUTELY no big deal, than the opposite (not letting a player be a part of this) is by definition petty and unfair to the player/Red Sox.

Your signature line says it all. NOTHING the Orioles do will make some fans happy until Angelos sells the team. Therefore, I will not argue this point any more.

I will, however, say that I have NEVER in any of these posts called the people on the upset side "wrong." I have disagreed, certainly, but I have in numerous posts said something like "I understand why you're upset, but..."

[Wingman]

Your signature line says it all. NOTHING the Orioles do will make some fans happy until Angelos sells the team. Therefore, I will not argue this point any more.

I will, however, say that I have NEVER in any of these posts called the people on the upset side "wrong." I have disagreed, certainly, but I have in numerous posts said something like "I understand why you're upset, but..."

This has nothing really to do with my signature... You're just avoiding the fact that you made an inaccurate statement. (about player's livelihood) and I called you on it.

If the O's were to trade a bunch of their older players for good younger players this offseason I would be very happy with the O's (whether or not Angelos is still around) so please refrain from speaking for me in the future.

Maybe you've never made the assersion that the people that are upset are wrong, the idea has been put forward by some and I wanted to address it. (I apologize for not being clear in my post)

[Loupgaroo]

I'm not going to get hip deep in this again, but I've got to respond just once more. You're missing the point. AM probably gave his permission because he thought it was the right thing to do. Not all people have to have a WIIFM (what's in it for me) to do something.

It appears to me that Andy did this, despite the fact that it might upset some people and had virtually no Oriole WIIFM, because he thought it was the right thing to do for the game. That is the point. You seem to only want to look at this argument as if Andy is a marketing executive. He isn't. His job is to make decisions that he believes are correct. He should consider public opinion, but that shouldn't be the only measure of this decision.

I don't have any problem with you considering it only from the WIIFM perspective, but you're wrong when you conclude that EVERYONE (including AM) should have considered it from only this perspective. We can debate whether it was the right thing to do or not, but considering the proposition only relative to fan perception is missing a large part of the debate.

The point that I've been trying to make for a while is that I think he did consider public opinion - public opinion of RED SOX fans. I really think that the fact that a significant portion of the ticket buyers at Camden Yards are Sox fans influences how the team is marketed. Angelos has said in the past that he doesn't mind fans of our opponents flooding the stadium. That's the upside of allowing Millar to do this. It basically says to RSN: keep coming to Fenway South.

[RShack]

Sorry, players do owe their living entirely to the fans... It's really not debateable.

Sure it is. You just wish it was the way you say it is. But it's really not. Players are remembered for how they play the game, not for who's mad at them this week or next month or whatever. That only matters to the people who are mad. And even then, it doesn't last. You're way over-estimating both the importance and the longevity of fan anger. It comes and goes, and it doesn't matter at all in the long run. A minority of fans are mad now. But that doesn't change anything much, even in the short run. In a year, it won't matter at all.

[Wingman]

Sure it is. You just wish it was the way you say it is. But it's really not. Players are remembered for how they play the game, not for who's mad at them this week or next month or whatever. That only matters to the people who are mad. And even then, it doesn't last. You're way over-estimating both the importance and the longevity of fan anger. It comes and goes, and it doesn't matter at all in the long run. A minority of fans are mad now. But that doesn't change anything much, even in the short run. In a year, it won't matter at all.

I don't mean to be disrespectful but a player's livelihood, (i.e.) their salary does come 100% from their fans. If not the fan, please tell me where they get their money from? Fan anger or how they played the game is irrelevant... The point we're discussing here is where a player gets his livelihood from.

[Flip217]

The point that I've been trying to make for a while is that I think he did consider public opinion - public opinion of RED SOX fans. I really think that the fact that a significant portion of the ticket buyers at Camden Yards are Sox fans influences how the team is marketed. Angelos has said in the past that he doesn't mind fans of our opponents flooding the stadium. That's the upside of allowing Millar to do this. It basically says to RSN: keep coming to Fenway South.

A bit off topic, but I guess you'd prefer a mostly empty stadium to one filled with Sox fans? (I might...) I mean, where are all the O's fans getting riled up 'cause they can't get a ticket? If the Sox fans are passionate enough to spend the $, drive down here and attend the games...they're walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

Now, before I'm totally killed here, let me emphasize that I would absolutely love to see the day that Sox fans don't want to come to OPACY 'cause they'll see their team get stomped, and hear it from the thousands of O's fans surrounding them. I hope to God we get back to those days sooner rather than later. But isn't it a 2-way street here? They're buying the tix 'cause we aren't, right? Or is Angeos offering tix in the NE area at some sort of advance-sale website that we don't have?

[JTrea81]

A bit off topic, but I guess you'd prefer a mostly empty stadium to one filled with Sox fans? (I might...) I mean, where are all the O's fans getting riled up 'cause they can't get a ticket? If the Sox fans are passionate enough to spend the $, drive down here and attend the games...they're walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

Now, before I'm totally killed here, let me emphasize that I would absolutely love to see the day that Sox fans don't want to come to OPACY 'cause they'll see their team get stomped, and hear it from the thousands of O's fans surrounding them. I hope to God we get back to those days sooner rather than later. But isn't it a 2-way street here? They're buying the tix 'cause we aren't, right? Or is Angeos offering tix in the NE area at some sort of advance-sale website that we don't have?

I think you'd find that a lot of the Sox fans that invade the yard are from Virginia and other surrounding areas. Quite a few do come down from NE but a lot of them are regional bandwagon fans. Most likely if the Orioles were better than the Sox you would see them in Orioles gear instead...

[Flip217]

I think you'd find that a lot of the Sox fans that invade the yard are from Virginia and other surrounding areas. Quite a few do come down from NE but a lot of them are regional bandwagon fans. Most likely if the Orioles were better than the Sox you would see them in Orioles gear instead...

You know, I think you're right on the money. The Sox are clearly the most / best marketed team right now.... Will we ever be that team? Oh well, I'll still go to as many games as I can and hope I can cheer the O's / jeer the Sox and rub it in the Boston fans faces at John Stevens afterwards!

[thomden]

After listening to Millar on the Anita Marks show I had a hard time not feeling a bit sorry for the guy. He seems to be clueless with regard to fan displeasure. At first I was extremely upset, but I now believe my madness was more about my hatred for the Red Sox, than Millar. I don't agree with what he did, but I still love the guy. He has great clubhouse presence, and someone who makes me feel good.

By comparison Tejada and Mora with my perception of their attitudes bother me much more, and I am praying both are gone next year.

Lastly Anita Marks did all but kiss his ass, and Roch wasn't much better. For the most part I find Roch's blog good reading, but I seldom watch Anita Marks. Hopefully ESPN will find a better suited replacement. Although not Roch, he is a better print journalist IMO.

[Dipper9]

I think you'd find that a lot of the Sox fans that invade the yard are from Virginia and other surrounding areas. Quite a few do come down from NE but a lot of them are regional bandwagon fans. Most likely if the Orioles were better than the Sox you would see them in Orioles gear instead...

Are we going to get into what makes a true fan again? Whether they are bandwagon fans or not, they are still fans. I bet when the Orioles finally do make the playoffs, those of us who have stuck with them all these years will still have a hard time getting tickets to the playoff games because all the bandwagon Orioles fans will be beating us to the tickets.

[Spoonless]

If letting Millar participate was ABSOLUTELY no big deal, than the opposite (not letting a player be a part of this) is by definition petty and unfair to the player/Red Sox.

I'm not following this logic. If letting him participate was no big deal, how is refusing to let him participate a big deal? It isn't possible that the decision whether or not to allow him to participate was in itself not a big deal?

Maybe you've never made the assersion that the people that are upset are wrong, the idea has been put forward by some and I wanted to address it.

I haven't seen that idea put forward. I don't recall anybody saying that people shouldn't be upset, or don't have the right to be upset. I've seen several posts saying that if you're not upset, you're not a fan, and more posts questioning how it's possible that people are not upset by it. At worst, it seems that there have been people unaffected by this who have thought that some of the people up in arms over it are overreacting.

As for the players' salaries being paid by the fans, that's true, but they're being paid more by MLB fans in general (through profit sharing), as opposed to their team's specific fans. If an Orioles fan abandons the O's and starts buying up Red Sox stuff instead, the O's are still going to see a portion of those profits.