Millar on Anita Marks

[Frobby]

There was a time that the Orioles were beloved in this town and respected around the country. Now this organization is a laughing stock. The Millar episode in Boston is the latest! Some fans don't care if he was there and participated in the festivities. That's because they are not Orioles fans. Others care because they are Orioles fans.

That's your first post?

I don't care about what Millar did, and don't you dare tell me I'm not an Orioles fan.

[The Wedge]

Here's something that's bugging me about all this. Millar says that he not only got permission, but that he double checked on that permission before he did anything. And let's face it, anybody that even has passing knowledge of Kevin Millar knows that he's not exactly powering light bulbs, you know? But so many people are still on the "TRADE HIM RELEASE HIM GET HIM OFF THE TEAM OMGWTFBBQ!!!111" train, which makes no sense to me. At this point, with the evidence we have, you should be really pissed at the management. To ask said management to cut ties with him for this, because of fan ire, after they told him it was okay in the first place...that's a horrible message to send to any potential free agents who the FO wants to court. I mean, you're basically telling the players that the FO will screw you over to save their own neck, and pretty easily too. That mentality is trying to make the FO in to that incredibly cliched stereotypical girlfriend wife that people joke about and you see in television. "Honey, the guys want me to go out tonight, is that cool?" "Sure, dear." "You sure? I mean, if you wanted to do something, it's no big deal if I blow them off." "No, you go have fun." Then when the guy comes home the woman is all pissed off because he went anyway (insert laugh track and cloying soundtrack when they make up).

Millar is an idiot. We know this. But for god's sake, if you're going to be angry, the backlash should be directed at the management that let him do it. Not the gregerious guy who just loves messing around and having fun and didn't think there'd be an issue since he got permission.

[DrungoHazewood]

There was a time that the Orioles were beloved in this town and respected around the country. Now this organization is a laughing stock. The Millar episode in Boston is the latest! Some fans don't care if he was there and participated in the festivities. That's because they are not Orioles fans. Others care because they are Orioles fans.

Why don't you come up with a standardized test that quantifies what an Oriole fan does and doesn't do. Then we can have all members and prospective members of the Hangout take the test, and you're only allowed to post here if you get a certain percentage, like 100%. I've always longed for the day when we could ban all fake Orioles fans from the site. How I've tired of these endless debates, and how I've dreamed of a homogeneous, unanimous Hangout.

[beardbr]

I have been pondering this situation, obviously being if you read Roch and OH, you can't avoid it. From the AM/Angelos side and permission, I'm thinking that Kevin was a player that did give it all when he played last year. he also did a lot to try to rally the team and connect to Baltimore in small ways. Remember the Ray Lewis dance on Opening Day? Beards for Birds. As a manager in business, sometimes you reward someone for what they have done in unusual ways. Maybe it was actually a pretty classy cool thing, as a way of saying thanks. And the FO knows Kevin's coming to the end of his playing career, and he really does have a future in Broadcasting. Character like Kruk, comfortable in front of the camera, so even giving the permission for the Fox stuff may have been okayed, realizing that it was good for Kevin's resume after baseball. I am thinking that for once, the FO may have done the right thing, even if it may not be the most popular thing. Hopefully this is a sign that Andy would rather do what is right for the long term, and deal with the short term repercussions as they come.

Or maybe I'm an idiot:)

[osfan83]

I have been pondering this situation, obviously being if you read Roch and OH, you can't avoid it. From the AM/Angelos side and permission, I'm thinking that Kevin was a player that did give it all when he played last year. he also did a lot to try to rally the team and connect to Baltimore in small ways. Remember the Ray Lewis dance on Opening Day? Beards for Birds. As a manager in business, sometimes you reward someone for what they have done in unusual ways. Maybe it was actually a pretty classy cool thing, as a way of saying thanks. And the FO knows Kevin's coming to the end of his playing career, and he really does have a future in Broadcasting. Character like Kruk, comfortable in front of the camera, so even giving the permission for the Fox stuff may have been okayed, realizing that it was good for Kevin's resume after baseball. I am thinking that for once, the FO may have done the right thing, even if it may not be the most popular thing. Hopefully this is a sign that Andy would rather do what is right for the long term, and deal with the short term repercussions as they come.

Or maybe I'm an idiot:)

This all maybe true...but the fact remains some portion of the Oriole faithful were bothered by this. If the Sun poll is any indication, maybe as many as 1/3 were bothered by it.

So the question still remains, was allowing Kevin to do something that he wanted to do worth upsetting maybe 1/3 of your customer base? I don't know, maybe it was...but that is the question.

[canonfaz]

it would be alot easier to take this if the orioles would have been at least competative with the red sox this year.

[RShack]

That's your first post?

I don't care about what Millar did, and don't you dare tell me I'm not an Orioles fan.

In his very first post, the new guy is makin' Frobby mad!

AFAIK, it's not that easy to make Frobby mad... (now, if there's a Mrs. Frobby, maybe she knows something about it I don't ;-)

[osfan83]

I appreciate what you're saying here and I understand the logic behind it, but I respectfully disagree. When people in the public eye start worrying only about offending sections of society RATHER than doing what they believe to be right, we all lose. This very issue is the main reason why we rarely have good options for public office anymore. Most politicians are worried more about which way the wind is blowing and not offending anyone rather than making tough choices based on the information and knowledge at their disposal AND their sense of right and wrong. Part of being a leader (and being worthy of being thought of as a leader) is the strength of character to make unpopular choices/stands.

Furthermore, I don't want Andy MacPhail making decisions aimed at not upsetting people. I want him making decisions based on what he thinks is the correct thing to do. Making decisions aimed at not upsetting people is why Brian Roberts hasn't been traded. The average fan would be very upset so don't go there EVEN if it is the right thing to do. I can cite probably 20 other examples of how "pleasing" the fans or at the least not alienating a section of the fanbase has led to poor decisions.

Now, there is a legitimate argument as to whether what MacPhail did was the right thing to do (again, I didn't agree with what happened but also considered it to be extremely minor), but I think the last thing we should be doing is analyzing this situation and reaching conclusions based on whether he went with fan perception..

1. Lets not equate making the tough decision about going to war, withthe tough decision of throwing out the first pitch.

2. Yes, public office should be veiwed upon differently than private business. In the Orioles case, the only reason the team exists is to entertain the fans. No fans, no team.

3. Yes, part of being a leader is having the strenght to make unpopular decision, but those decisions should ultimatly be for the good of the organization. I have yet to see what good we expect to come from this tough decision, or even what the intended good for the organization was.

I disagree with this post in its entirety. I would love if every ballplayer supported the causes I support, looked at every situation the way I do, voted the way I vote, etc...., but it is realistic to expect them to modify what they really think JUST because I want them to think like I do. I have the right to like them less as people IF I don't agree with their stances / approaches, but I shouldn't ever expect them to subjugate their feelings JUST because some group of fans disagrees with them. If Millar had done something immoral or illegal, it would absolutely be reasonable to expect him to apologize to the people he offended. He didn't. He made a judgment which some of us don't like, but it was definitely not an immoral or illegal choice.

The ballplayers don't OWE the fans anything other than to try as hard as they can at all times when playing baseball and to avoid immoral/illegal situations. Steve Carlton shouldn't be thought us as any less of a ballplayer or teammate despite the fact that he was a ***** to the media and most fans. Same with Jim Rice. Both these guys played their butts off while on the field and got in no trouble off the field.

Everything else ballplayers give us (the fans & media) is gravy. Don't get me wrong, I like the gravy. The gravy also helps the players make extra money via being liked which leads to endorsements and other opportunities. However, they shoudn't be expected to give us the gravy because they're ballplayers. We should appreciate the gravy they do give us and we have the right to dislike them as people if they don't give us any extra, but that's it. We can't expect them to act like our marionettes because we buy tickets to their games.

1. Ballplayers owe their entire living to the fans.

2. Yes dealing withthe media is part of their job. I'm sure some actors hate going on Jay Leno to talk about their upcomming film...but if you want that job, it's part of what you must do.

3. MLB is nothing more than entertainment. If you just like to play the game, there are many local community teams you can join to play for the love of the game. If you want to make a living at it, there are lots of things you have to do other than just play baseball. Keeping the customers satisfied so they will continue to support your method of making a living is most definatly part of the gig.

[Dipper9]

This all maybe true...but the fact remains some portion of the Oriole faithful were bothered by this. If the Sun poll is any indication, maybe as many as 1/3 were bothered by it.

So the question still remains, was allowing Kevin to do something that he wanted to do worth upsetting maybe 1/3 of your customer base? I don't know, maybe it was...but that is the question.

All the time I am forced to make decisions at home that I know may tick off two of the three children, but it will make the third childs day! Most of the time I go for making the third childs day. I tell the other two that life isn't always fair!

Its not exactly the same thing, but in a way it is. The people that you say are ticked off will have forgotten about this come 2 weeks after the WS when the Hot Stove picks up, and I would bet they all still cheer for Millar next April. If not, well then IMO they are some pretty shallow people that hold on to grudges for way too long. I understand being upset (though I'm not) and I understand being hurt, but holding on to it all winter and booing an Oriole come April is going too far, IMO!

[osfan83]

All the time I am forced to make decisions at home that I know may tick off two of the three children, but it will make the third childs day! Most of the time I go for making the third childs day. I tell the other two that life isn't always fair!

Its not exactly the same thing, but in a way it is. The people that you say are ticked off will have forgotten about this come 2 weeks after the WS when the Hot Stove picks up, and I would bet they all still cheer for Millar next April. If not, well then IMO they are some pretty shallow people that hold on to grudges for way too long. I understand being upset (though I'm not) and I understand being hurt, but holding on to it all winter and booing an Oriole come April is going too far, IMO!

Again you very well may be right. But I'm still having a hard time seeing the Orioles upside. I see Kevin's. I just don't see the O's reward for the risk they took.

[RShack]

1. Ballplayers owe their entire living to the fans.

2. Yes dealing withthe media is part of their job. I'm sure some actors hate going on Jay Leno to talk about their upcomming film...but if you want that job, it's part of what you must do.

3. MLB is nothing more than entertainment. If you just like to play the game, there are many local community teams you can join to play for the love of the game. If you want to make a living at it, there are lots of things you have to do other than just play baseball. Keeping the customers satisfied so they will continue to support your method of making a living is most definatly part of the gig.

Well, I see your point, but I think it's not really like that at all. Maybe that's how you *wish* it was. But it's not.

Ballplayers owe their living to their ability to play ball and to the guys who sign their checks, not to "entertainment box office" issues. It's not really like movie stars or rock stars at all. Ballplayer salary money comes from somewhere, and that ends up being fans and TV-advertisers. But it's not the fans making the decisions about who's good and what they get paid for. Ted Williams and Eddie didn't get along so great with the press and their public image with the fans wasn't very good, and who cares about that nowdays? Nobody. The press and sour fan opinion ran Eddie out of town, and we got nobody back for him, and that doesn't look like such a great move in retrospect, does it? In the long run, who cares about fan opinion when it comes to evaluating the kind of career somebody had. Nobody, that's who. The only thing people care about in the long term is how they played ball.

So, let's not overstate the importance of fan opinion. Fan opinion is transient and quickly forgotten. How somebody plays the game on the field is the only thing that really matters, except in the short-term roller coaster of fan opinion. And fan opinion usually doesn't last anyway. Guys who used to hate Ted Williams and Steve Carlton and Eddie Murray now think they're great. People who would've been calling for Eddie's head if we'd had message boards back then, those folks are proud he's in the HOF as an Oriole. In the end, it's only what happens between the lines that matters. If Millar gets remembered anything, it will be for his role in that 2004 team, and that's a fact. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is gonna care about how JTrea (or whoever else) is having fits about his Fox promo or the first-pitch or reading line-up cards or whatever. All the anger and indignation and rage is just one of many things that blows away with the wind. Who even knows how Honus Wagner or Pie Traynor got along with the press of the fans? It's how they play the game that lasts, nothing else.

[Dipper9]

1. Lets not equate making the tough decision about going to war, withthe tough decision of throwing out the first pitch.

2. Yes, public office should be veiwed upon differently than private business. In the Orioles case, the only reason the team exists is to entertain the fans. No fans, no team.

3. Yes, part of being a leader is having the strenght to make unpopular decision, but those decisions should ultimatly be for the good of the organization. I have yet to see what good we expect to come from this tough decision, or even what the intended good for the organization was.

1. Ballplayers owe their entire living to the fans.

2. Yes dealing withthe media is part of their job. I'm sure some actors hate going on Jay Leno to talk about their upcomming film...but if you want that job, it's part of what you must do.

3. MLB is nothing more than entertainment. If you just like to play the game, there are many local community teams you can join to play for the love of the game. If you want to make a living at it, there are lots of things you have to do other than just play baseball. Keeping the customers satisfied so they will continue to support your method of making a living is most definatly part of the gig.

Oh man, where do I start here.

From above, number 2. No fans, no team? Oh really? I think you have that wrong. No fans..no Baltimore team. Go ask the Colts about that! Its fans who worry about these tiny indiscretions that ruin a popular player's reputation in the community. Go ask Eddie Murray about that!

From above, number 3. Why did this decision have to have anything at all to do with improving the Orioles organization? Why can it not just be someone's boss (MacPhail) letting their employee (Millar) go to something fun? My boss has allowed me to go to my kids school to see their Christmas concert. That decision has YET to do any good for the organization for which I work. But GD it sure was a nice thing for my boss to do, and it improved my morale with the company!

From number 1 in the lower section. Players do NOT owe their entire living to the fans. Baseball would exist with or without Kevin Millar. Its his talent that he OWES his living to. Love him or hate him, but there are only a select few people in the world with the talent to play professional sports, and he is one of them. He gives his best effort when on the field, and has also "entertained" the fans with his antics in Baltimore. However, he does NOT have to live every moment of his life for the fans! Its people like you with that kind of thinking that chase movie stars around with cameras shoved in their faces. Its that kind fo thnking that causes people in the spotlight to turn to drugs and alcohol to get away from it all. I'm sorry, but just because a man plays for my team doesn't give me the right to dictate what he does and does not do in every aspect of his life. If he wants to be a Steelers fan, more power to him. If he wants to root for the Red Sox when HIS team is not playing, then so be it. I have maintained my cool as long as I could, but people who want to dictate that players should live their lives for THE FANS is just BS and makes me really angry!

[osfan83]

Well, I see your point, but I think it's not really like that at all. Maybe that's how you wish it was. But it's not.

Ballplayers owe their living to their ability to play ball and to the guys who sign their checks, not to "entertainment box office" issues. It's not really like movie stars or rock stars at all. Ballplayer salary money comes from somewhere, and that ends up being fans and TV-advertisers. But it's not the fans making the decisions about who's good and what they get paid for. Ted Williams and Eddie didn't get along so great with the press and their public image with the fans wasn't very good, and who cares about that nowdays? Nobody. The press and sour fan opinion ran Eddie out of town, and we got nobody back for him, and that doesn't look like such a great move in retrospect, does it? In the long run, who cares about fan opinion when it comes to evaluating the kind of career somebody had. Nobody, that's who. The only thing people care about in the long term is how they played ball.

So, let's not overstate the importance of fan opinion. Fan opinion is transient and quickly forgotten. How somebody plays the game on the field is the only thing that really matters, except in the short-term roller coaster of fan opinion. And fan opinion usually doesn't last anyway. Guys who used to hate Ted Williams and Steve Carlton and Eddie Murray now think they're great. People who would've been calling for Eddie's head if we'd had message boards back then, those folks are proud he's in the HOF as an Oriole. In the end, it's only what happens between the lines that matters. Millar will be remembered for his role in that 2004 team, that's a fact. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is gonna care about how JTrea (or whoever else) is having fits about it. All the anger and indignation and rage is just one of many things that blows away with the wind. It's how they play the game that lasts, nothing else.

Well...I think ability, and the success of their teams may have helped them overcome their lack of ability with the press. In other words, if you are perceived to be a pain in the ass, and not a great guy, but you are one of the best players on your team, and the team has success while you are their, utimitaly you are entertaining the fans with your play, so you can get away with it. If Eddie was a below average first baseman on a team that finish in 4th place every year, I'm not sure how much love their would be for him.

Second, look at Barry Bonds. If it were just about ability and success, then Barry should be one of the most popular players in MLB history. And while yes he is popular, I thnk many don't buy his merchandise, and may not support the Giants outside of the SF market because things other than baseball ability. Guys like Cal have fans all over the country because of the way he presented himself.

In fact I know a guy who is an Orioles fan, who grew up in Youngstown Ohio, and never set foot in Baltimore before becoming an O's fan. Why? Because he grew up idolizing Cal, and now he goes to several games a year, and buys lots of O's merchandise, while still living in Youngstown.

[osfan83]

Oh man, where do I start here.

From above, number 2. No fans, no team? Oh really? I think you have that wrong. No fans..no Baltimore team. Go ask the Colts about that! Its fans who worry about these tiny indiscretions that ruin a popular player's reputation in the community. Go ask Eddie Murray about that!

From above, number 3. Why did this decision have to have anything at all to do with improving the Orioles organization? Why can it not just be someone's boss (MacPhail) letting their employee (Millar) go to something fun? My boss has allowed me to go to my kids school to see their Christmas concert. That decision has YET to do any good for the organization for which I work. But GD it sure was a nice thing for my boss to do, and it improved my morale with the company!

From number 1 in the lower section. Players do NOT owe their entire living to the fans. Baseball would exist with or without Kevin Millar. Its his talent that he OWES his living to. Love him or hate him, but there are only a select few people in the world with the talent to play professional sports, and he is one of them. He gives his best effort when on the field, and has also "entertained" the fans with his antics in Baltimore. However, he does NOT have to live every moment of his life for the fans! Its people like you with that kind of thinking that chase movie stars around with cameras shoved in their faces. Its that kind fo thnking that causes people in the spotlight to turn to drugs and alcohol to get away from it all. I'm sorry, but just because a man plays for my team doesn't give me the right to dictate what he does and does not do in every aspect of his life. If he wants to be a Steelers fan, more power to him. If he wants to root for the Red Sox when HIS team is not playing, then so be it. I have maintained my cool as long as I could, but people who want to dictate that players should live their lives for THE FANS is just BS and makes me really angry!

The reason your boss let you attend your kids Christmas concert is probably because he/she thinks you are a good employee and wants to keep you happy, knowing that it might inspire you to stay withthe company and want to produce more...it was in a way, forthe good ofthe company.

It takes lots of skill to be one of the 100 lacross players in the country as well. Why don't they make $10 million dollars a year? There are lost of things that are hard to do, but if no one will pay to see it, then you don't get paid.

Weather you want to beleive it or not, MLB is a business, and the customers arethe fans. The only way it makes money is if fans witch the games on TV, creating ratings and ad dollars, in person, money at the gate, or buy merchandise. Once that stops, the money stops.

I'm not saying Millar's stunt will shut off the money...it may very well not have any impact at all. All I'm saying is these are things the management of the team need to take into consideration. I still am not sure the O's upside. maybe they just wanted to kep kevin happy so he produces more next year, or maybe they will get a discount when resigning him in the future?

[Dipper9]

The reason your boss let you attend your kids Christmas concert is probably because he/she thinks you are a good employee and wants to keep you happy, knowing that it might inspire you to stay withthe company and want to produce more...it was in a way, forthe good ofthe company.

It takes lots of skill to be one of the 100 lacross players in the country as well. Why don't they make $10 million dollars a year? There are lost of things that are hard to do, but if no one will pay to see it, then you don't get paid.

Weather you want to beleive it or not, MLB is a business, and the customers arethe fans. The only way it makes money is if fans witch the games on TV, creating ratings and ad dollars, in person, money at the gate, or buy merchandise. Once that stops, the money stops.

I'm not saying Millar's stunt will shut off the money...it may very well not have any impact at all. All I'm saying is these are things the management of the team need to take into consideration. I still am not sure the O's upside. maybe they just wanted to kep kevin happy so he produces more next year, or maybe they will get a discount when resigning him in the future?

Or maybe they thought like many of us feel, "What the hell, it won't effect the Orioles at all since we stink and aren't in the playoffs. Go ahead Kevin...enjoy yourself!"

I won't take issue with any of the rest of your response. I understand completely that fans, in effect, pay for MLB to exist, but that can be said for anything in life. I brought up the Chick-fil-A thing the other day aout being closed on Sundays. That is a decision they make that does NOT help their business in any way, it is just their belief that Sunday is God's day. That is a vauable belief and I support them for that, but if I decided that I need a chicken sandwich on Sunday, then they are losing money, pusghing me to go to another restaurant, and may lose me as a customer.

The belief that many have that this stunt by Millar will cost the Orioles fans is just crazy. But if that's what you want to believe, then more power to ya!