Millar on Anita Marks

[Dipper9]

This has nothing really to do with my signature... You're just avoiding the fact that you made an inaccurate statement. (about player's livelihood) and I called you on it.

If the O's were to trade a bunch of their older players for good younger players this offseason I would be very happy with the O's (whether or not Angelos is still around) so please refrain from speaking for me in the future.

Maybe you've never made the assersion that the people that are upset are wrong, the idea has been put forward by some and I wanted to address it. (I apologize for not being clear in my post)

HS! Are you intentionally trying to get me pissed off or what? This has been a reasonably civil discussion between two very different opinion suntil you showed up today blasting BOTH VaTech and myself.

First, you "called me on it" for an inaccurate statement? Listen my friend...the Orioles could have ZERO fans show up to their games, and they would still make money under the MLB umbrella! MASN could have ZERO viewers and the Orioles would still make money! We have proven that we can lose for ten straight years, have more and more fans no show the stadium, and yet STILL make money! In fact, there's another thread talking about how the Orioles franchise is worth more today than ever before! So, if I am WRONG as you so ignorantly stated, then how is it that less fans means more money for the Orioles?

Also, just to clarify, I did not speak for YOU! Read my post! I said ...

Originally Posted by Dipper9

Your signature line says it all. NOTHING the Orioles do will make some fans happy until Angelos sells the team.

Where did I say YOU? Where did I call out Wingman? I didn't! Please don't turn this discussion into a pissing contest! I have been around here too long to get myself in trouble over this!

[Flip217]

Are we going to get into what makes a true fan again? Whether they are bandwagon fans or not, they are still fans. I bet when the Orioles finally do make the playoffs, those of us who have stuck with them all these years will still have a hard time getting tickets to the playoff games because all the bandwagon Orioles fans will be beating us to the tickets.

Nah -- by the time the O's make the playoffs again, we can drive our personal spaceships to the virtual OPACY, put on our Quasi-Dimensional virtual reality goggles, and watch the game as if we were in the dugout -- no ticket shortages at all! Beer will still be overpriced, however...

[RShack]

Fan anger or how they played the game is irrelevant... The point we're discussing here is where a player gets his livelihood from.

They get their money from the team, and the team gets most of it's money from TV. You can say that the money-trail gets back to the fans eventually, and I agree, but it's a convoluted trail.

The anger of some folks here is the only reason we're even talking about it. That's what it boils down to.

[osfan83]

I'm not going to get hip deep in this again, but I've got to respond just once more. You're missing the point. AM probably gave his permission because he thought it was the right thing to do. Not all people have to have a WIIFM (what's in it for me) to do something.

It appears to me that Andy did this, despite the fact that it might upset some people and had virtually no Oriole WIIFM, because he thought it was the right thing to do for the game. That is the point. You seem to only want to look at this argument as if Andy is a marketing executive. He isn't. His job is to make decisions that he believes are correct. He should consider public opinion, but that shouldn't be the only measure of this decision.

I don't have any problem with you considering it only from the WIIFM perspective, but you're wrong when you conclude that EVERYONE (including AM) should have considered it from only this perspective. We can debate whether it was the right thing to do or not, but considering the proposition only relative to fan perception is missing a large part of the debate.

AM is paid to consider WIIF the O's! That's his job. Decisions he makes in his private life do not have to have that component. But when being paid to manage someone elses business, it is your duty, not to do what YOU want to do, it is your duty to do what is in the best interest of the entity that owns the business you are hired to run!

AM might think giving Millions to help fight AIDS is the right think to do...but it's wrong if he gives company money without the permission of the owner. What AM thinks is the right or nice thing to do is irrelivant. His job is to decided what is right for the O's. Now he may have done that, but again, it has not yet been explained to me what the O's benifit is.

[Dipper9]

AM is paid to consider WIIF the O's! That's his job. Decisions he makes in his private life do not have to have that component. But when being paid to manage someone elses business, it is your duty, not to do what YOU want to do, it is your duty to do what is in the best interest of the entity that owns the business you are hired to run!

AM might think giving Millions to help fight AIDS is the right think to do...but it's wrong if he gives company money without the permission of the owner. What AM thinks is the right or nice thing to do is irrelivant. His job is to decided what is right for the O's. Now he may have done that, but again, it has not yet been explained to me what the O's benifit is.

Well, since Peter Angelos, the owner of this business, ALSO agreed to let Millar do it, I don't see how your argument here holds any water? But I suppose Angelos wasn't looking out for the interest of HIS business either, so they should not have allowed it!

[osfan83]

Well, since Peter Angelos, the owner of this business, ALSO agreed to let Millar do it, I don't see how your argument here holds any water? But I suppose Angelos wasn't looking out for the interest of HIS business either, so they should not have allowed it!

You are correct, PA did approve it. And like I said, both AM and PA may have considered the possible fan backlash and decided it was nothing to be concerned about...and they may very well be right about that.

But I believe PA has done several things that were not in the best interest of his business. But it sure is his right to do it.

My opinion, if put in that same situation, I probably would have done what the Mets management decided.

[osfan83]

One of the things AM is paid to consider is the WIIFM of a situation. It isn't the only thing he is paid to consider. Most managers/owners don't operate using WIIFM as their only guide.

It is clear that you don't think there is any way the Orioles should do anything unless they can point to an immediate ROI (return on investment). That is fine. You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree and I think a very high percentage of managers/owners would disagree.

Not what's in it for me....Which decision is in the best interest of the organization I'm paid to run.

And who said immediate ROI? There is nothing wrong with making a decision that may have a delayed ROI impact.

Bottom line, PA is the owner, and he can do what he wants..and he did. But then again I don't think PA always does whats in the best interest of his organization. But it's his money, so he can do what he wants....and I'm free to disagree!

[Loupgaroo]

A bit off topic, but I guess you'd prefer a mostly empty stadium to one filled with Sox fans? (I might...) I mean, where are all the O's fans getting riled up 'cause they can't get a ticket? If the Sox fans are passionate enough to spend the $, drive down here and attend the games...they're walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

Now, before I'm totally killed here, let me emphasize that I would absolutely love to see the day that Sox fans don't want to come to OPACY 'cause they'll see their team get stomped, and hear it from the thousands of O's fans surrounding them. I hope to God we get back to those days sooner rather than later. But isn't it a 2-way street here? They're buying the tix 'cause we aren't, right? Or is Angeos offering tix in the NE area at some sort of advance-sale website that we don't have?

Certainly I would prefer an empty stadium to one filled with Red Sox fans. O's fans are voting with their wallets by not buying tickets, and that's being undermined by a new source of cash. And the ownership is happy to take their money. Fewer tickets sold would mean more pressure to build a good team.

[NewMarketSean]

I'm so over this whole thing. It's just Millar being Millar. I don't have a doubt in my mind that Millar doesn't want to beat the Red Sox in every game they play next year. Was it something I wish didn't happen? Sure.... but it did keep us busy for a week while nothing else was going on on Orioleland.

MacPhail said the reason he gave Millar permission to participate was that he would expect the same thing if the roles were reversed. Well Andy, focus on making that become a reality so when Brian Roberts signs with the Red Sox in 2 years, we can "borrow" him in 2012 to celebrate the Orioles 2009 World Series victory.

Sound good?

[PoorMike]

One of the things AM is paid to consider is the WIIFM of a situation. It isn't the only thing he is paid to consider. Most managers/owners don't operate using WIIFM as their only guide.

It is clear that you don't think there is any way the Orioles should do anything unless they can point to an immediate ROI (return on investment). That is fine. You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree and I think a very high percentage of managers/owners would disagree.

This issue itself appears to be winding down now that everybody has spoken.

It appears that MacPhail, Millar, Millar's teamates, and even Angelos gave their approbation based on their personal relationship with Millar and knowledge of Millar's work ethic. Walker intimated that it may have been questioned had some other guys made the request. I can understand all of that.

However, for future reference, I wonder what other clubs and even academics who study marketing would say about this. MacPhail et al may have been too close to Millar to look at what the big picture means as far as the pride that O's fans have in the Orioles brand and the juxtaposition with the Red Sox brand that this scenario has caused.

I don't think EVERYTHING is about ROI.....but I think that when you allow something like this to happen, there must be some benefit gained from risking such a move. The only benefit I can see is that the Orioles made one player happy at the expense of numerous fans who would have preferred that they told him no. That doesn't seem to make much sense, and I do think a lot of people would agree with that.

[TinCup]

Are we going to get into what makes a true fan again? Whether they are bandwagon fans or not, they are still fans. I bet when the Orioles finally do make the playoffs, those of us who have stuck with them all these years will still have a hard time getting tickets to the playoff games because all the bandwagon Orioles fans will be beating us to the tickets.

Dipper my friend, god bless your optimism. You use the word "when" and not "if". Ever the optimist - good on ya.

[Todd-O]

God, the Orioles suck.

Look at what we've all been reduced to... bickering over a worthless middling like Kevin Millar.

The Orioles' identity is still Cal Ripken. It's like we're stuck in the Twilight Zone... we are quickly approaching a decade of no Rip and we have no other ball players that truly embody what it means to play ball in this town (at least, what we would like to see).

This whole organization has hit Kansas City Royals status... and there is no real hope of digging out in any of the coming seasons. I hate it. It drives me nuts... but this Millar guy doesn't mean anything to me. He's nothing more than another bad mistake - a crap signing - pulled off by the idiots that are controlling the Orioles. Frankly, watching him play is unexciting... boring... you name it.

I hate the Red Sox not only because they are a divisional rival... but because they have become the Yankees. There are bandwagon fans all over the country. Everywhere you look, you see hats with the "B" on them. But, you have to give this to them: All that money... big name signings... and the bloated payroll did not give them the key ingredient that makes them real winners. They are a team... and even sh#tty players like Millar can fit in to that type of an organization and play a vital role.

Angelos needs to sell.... NOW.

[NewMarketSean]

I agree with most everything you've said... but Roberts and Markakis are the marketable face of this franchise, it's just that no one really cares because the team is so God-awful.

And MacPhail can "dig out" this offseason, he's just got to have the juevos to trade players like Tejada, Bedard and maybe even Roberts.

[Wingman]

They get their money from the team, and the team gets most of it's money from TV. You can say that the money-trail gets back to the fans eventually, and I agree, but it's a convoluted trail.

The anger of some folks here is the only reason we're even talking about it. That's what it boils down to.

It's really not that convoluted... TV gets it's money from advertisers who are trying to get money from fans. No fans. No Advertisers. No Money. No Livelihood.

[helloharv]

One thing he did mention was Mike Flanagan threw out the opening pitch for the Blue Jays in 1991 or 1992 in a game. Can anyone confirm that one?

That is 100% False