At what point was it clear to you MacPhail was not "the guy?"

[Sports Guy]

I don't really disagree with anything you say there. I'm not sure I understand your overall point. Weren't most people happy with the starting rotation that MacPhail put together?

There is a disconnect with you and many others. You seem to think that if people were predicting a 500ish record for this team that it means we are happy with AM overall.

That just isn't the case.

[OFFNY]

I have been consistently wrong and probably will continue to be. I am happier having hope.

Wait a minute, Weams. NOBODY is as wrong as often as OFFNY is.

[Moose Milligan]

I don't really disagree with anything you say there. I'm not sure I understand your overall point. Weren't most people happy with the starting rotation that MacPhail put together?

Yeah, but the members of that rotation were identified before this offseason. We all knew going into 2011 that Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta and Guthrie would be components of this years rotation in September of 2010, barring trades. Guthrie has been viewed as the anchor of the rotation and the three others were identified as part of the Calvary.

They weren't part of MacPhail's offseason.

[Sports Guy]

I think there are many people who were predicting a .500 or better record and would be happy with AM if the team was over .500 right now. I tried to imply that there was another crowd who wouldn't have been happy even with a good record.

I think we would all be happy because that would likely mean some of the young talent had really broken through.

But when talking about the future, there would have been hesitation..and rightfully so.

A big reason for that would be that you know they wouldn't be making any trades in terms of getting rid of older vets on the current team. So, we would have to go into the offseason expecting them to spend big money.

But overall, I don't see how it is hypocritical for anyone, even if they liked the moves, to be upset and calling for AM's head if those moves failed. Its his job to do the right moves and to get this team winning...If that doesn't happen, then he needs to go.

[24fps]

I don't think there is one defining moment. The Atkins signing was confusing. The Gregg signing this year over cheaper alternatives was also worrisome. Overall, most don't like MacPhail's style. He's methodical and slow. He's not a gunslinger. He doesn't seem to have the imagination to do the little things, like pick up extra picks. Ultimately, he and Jordan haven't been able to put together the minor league talent that this organization needed. He's also been a victim of players just not peforming the way many expected. This year the starting rotation felll completely apart. You had a potential young rotation of Matusz, Arrieta, and Britton set up for the next 5 years. Now Matusz is a huge question mark, and he was expected to be the ace. Seems like every offseason there are 5 or 6 holes to plug and that hasn't changed. It will be the same this offseason.

I roll my eyes at people who say there was one defining moment. As with everything it's not so black and white. I also think there are a lot of hypcrites around here. People who are rah rah one minute and then are the leaders of the lynch mob the next.

I think most people who regularly post here were supportive of MacPhail up until the beginning of last season. That's two-and-a-half years into his tenure, which is enough time before raising the standard a little. The lone dissenter I can clearly remember is JTrea81. Sports Guy was also raising questions about his aggressiveness early on; correctly in retrospect. Now that four years have passed many of us have changed our minds. Are you suggesting there was a time when we had to forever fix our opinions in place or risk being labeled a hypocrite? If so when?

Perhaps not for you, but for many of us there was a clear moment when the context in which we considered AM's leadership fundamentally changed. Nothing unusual in that.

[Sports Guy]

I guess I'm the oddball then. If I say "MacPhail has put together a really good team this year. I love his moves" and then in July, I say "AM really screwed up this year. The team stinks. He's got to go!", in my universe that's hypocritical. In your universe the word must not exist.

Is it your job to put together that team? Are you solely focused on what happens for 2011 and not what has happened before or after?

[24fps]

I never said that and I don't know where you came up with it. I think you are merging two different ideas. I don't begrudge anyone for supporting AM at one time and now changing their opinion. In fact, I put myself in that camp. I just don't think you can point to one transaction or one day and say that was thet defining moment. At least I can't and I don't understand how someone else can. But if you can say that there was one day or one transaction that was the defining moment then who am I to rob you of that priviledge.

The hypocrite angle comes from those who were happy with this team before the season and now blame AM for putting it together.

For the sake of this conversation, "defining moment" in synonymous with tipping point in my mind. For me that came when AM, who I was becoming increasingly unsatisfied with anyway, explained away his decision to acquire Garrett Atkins with a rationale that insulted the intelligence of every devoted Orioles fan who was paying attention.

I was one of those people who were happy with AM's offseason moves last winter and I see no inconsistency whatsoever with that and my hope that his contract is not renewed. I'm under no illusions that this year's team was going to be anything special, but that's not the only yardstick that I apply. I'm quite happy to sit an watch a game on it's own terms without having the fun ruined by constant angst over whether team is "in contention". What a prescription for unhappiness that is. Ongoing success is the logical long-term goal of any team, and like most people who post here, I think AM hasn't prepared the organization for that, but that's not his only responsibility. He also has to put the best team on the field each year and he made a fairly good attempt last winter in stark contrast to the winter before.

We need someone who can handle all the (sometimes competing) responsibilities a little more deftly than MacPhail has.

[Sports Guy]

I never said that and I don't know where you came up with it. I think you are merging two different ideas. I don't begrudge anyone for supporting AM at one time and now changing their opinion. In fact, I put myself in that camp. I just don't think you can point to one transaction or one day and say that was thet defining moment. At least I can't and I don't understand how someone else can. But if you can say that there was one day or one transaction that was the defining moment then who am I to rob you of that priviledge.

The hypocrite angle comes from those who were happy with this team before the season and now blame AM for putting it together.

Is anyone doing this? I, for one, would want him gone even if this team was playing to the level I expected them to play.

[JTrea81]

It seems as some people are getting defensive even if they don't qualify for what I would call a hypocrite in this situation. I've clealry defined what I feel is that criteria. That gets restated as something else and than argued against. If you were happy with the team before the season and still wanted AM gone before the season then you clearly aren't a hypocrite according to my criteria.

I think this thread suddenly got twisted with wildcard's thread...

[SrMeowMeow]

It seems as some people are getting defensive even if they don't qualify for what I would call a hypocrite in this situation. I've clealry defined what I feel is that criteria. That gets restated as something else and than argued against. If you were happy with the team before the season and still wanted AM gone before the season then you clearly aren't a hypocrite according to my criteria.

Maybe some people just think maybe you should back off? There are ways to make your moderately legitimate point without spoiling for a fight.

[Chevytrckman3]

I wouldn't mind seeing John Hart as our GM. He's a good baseball man. Knows how to scout young talent, has a good reputation around baseball, and can be aggressive when the time is right. I think he'd be a great GM here in Baltimore. But, with PA as owner, i'm not sure how much it really matters anymore.

[SrMeowMeow]

As you've done before, it is you picking a fight, with me. I'm just expressing my opinion, not looking for a fight. In fact, I'd like to be done with it. I'm just tired of people misrepresenting what I've said. If you're only post is to tell me to "back off" then I'd say you don't have much to offer.

"My opinion is that 'most people' are hypocrites and idiots! I offer vague criteria that could apply to anybody and then passively-aggressively deflect all criticism by telling people not to be so sensitive! Whee!"

[Remember The Alomar]

What are we going to yell at each other about when the Orioles are good?

[JTrea81]

What are we going to yell at each other about when the Orioles are good?

Exactly, as it would be nice to concentrate that venom on the Orioles and not fellow fans...

[Remember The Alomar]

Exactly, as it would be nice to concentrate that venom on the Orioles and not fellow fans...

Or just laugh until we get a real owner.