Bigger problem: failure to develop our own players, or lack of aggressiveness in the FA market?

[Roll Tide]

Wish I could vote both but the inability to draft and develop impact players after 14yrs of high draft picks is pretty ridiculous. All one has to do is compare the Orioles and the Rays, the Rays picking in the top 1/3 of the draft built a system that was jam packed with talent and got them to the post season. They then parlayed that into more talent by trading those guys who were coming up for free agency for more talent. Where the Rays have layers of depth were prospects are concerned, the Orioles have hardly anything comparatively.

So you're voting player development as the Rays have done very little in free agency.

[Stotle]

Where to start? Reimhold is an example of player brought along well from the offensive perspective.....really??? He is a good role player at best on a decent team. The little bit of offense he brings to the table is almost negated by his spotty defense. In 197ab post allstar break playing just about every day the guy hit .247, 9 HR, 9 doubles, 3 triples OBP of .320..... hardly would call that anything to be overly excited about. Add in the fact that Reimhold is about as inconsistent year to year and he is 28 y.o....hardly a 22 y.o spring chicken and you have a guy who is a marginal player at best.

1. I think you need to think about what your expectations are for a typical 2nd Round pick.

2. Reimy looks like a .450 SLG/.350 OBP caliber bat. I'd argue there's enough power there for him to be a .500 SLG guy, too.

3. Defensive complaints are fine -- which is why I posed that consideration to mweb in my post you quoted.

4. He was drafted at age 22, debuted at age 25 (with "extra time" at AA/AAA and stepped in ready to go -- consider why Tampa has certain policies in place regarding promotion timetables), essentially lost last year due to off-field issues (age 26) and limited time this year (age 27). He turns 28 this month and will be 28 all of next year.

He isn't a superstar, but he's potentially a useful ML player who has had his opportunities limited due to personal issues (his own fault for sure) and a change in management (certainly not his fault).

[mweb]

The response to the post is that coaching a player to compete at his current level is a different skill than preparing him for success at the ML level -- including on-field performance, off-field preperation, off-season work, and overall approach to the game.

I don't think anyone without an intimate knowledge of the O's system, and how it operates, could say what the issues are with precision. Maybe there are issues with how things are run at the ML Level, as well. I don't know. I think Matusz/Wieters are separate cases in that they were very much advanced and prepared for big league ball. I believe the Orioles should get credit for either Matt's development at catcher, or at least for supporting his focus on that area (if it was more his decision than the organization's).

As far as the other players you list:

• Reimold is a good example of a player who seems to have been brought along well, and developed offensively. You can question, maybe, why his defense has been as spotty as it has, considering his athleticism.
• Jones spent no time at all in the O's system. I think he has largely become the ML player that many predicted. No knock on the O's here; no big pat to the MiL development system.
• Arrieta is TBD, but he certainly looks like a ML pitcher. Consider whether the mechanical changes could have ironed out some command/consistency issues before he arrived?
• Britton is very much "see above". Talent-wise, clearly looks ready. Query whether it would have possible for him to arrive with better consistency/command.
• Bergie is what he is. I don't have an issue with you using him as a player "ready for the Bigs" -- I think he was. But he was clearly pitching way above his head in his first year. Back-end guy from the get-go that was advanced from a command perspective at a young age (which allowed for numbers that outstriped his talent in the Minors).
• Ditto Hernandez. He was destined for the pen based on what he was in the Minors. Could another system have made the necessary tweaks to make him a starter? I'm doubtful. No knock on Baltimore for his shift to the pen. Hernandez also wasn't necessarily mentally prepared for the big stage, based on his 1st year demeanor on the mound. He seems to have come a long way with some experience.

I think you are correct in your opinion that people are commenting on more than they probably should, based on info available. But I don't see how anyone could look at what Baltimore has done with regards to developing players and not think there are clearly organizations whose players are much more prepared to succeed at the ML level. Unfortunately, the last chapter of MiL development isn't the Baseball-reference statline for AAA, it's the early years in the Majors, too.

Of course to the first line. My point is that it is rather difficult to look at the results of those players when they came up and come to some sweeping conclusion about the minor league player development. As a whole, they played about as well as expected early on and then many of them stalled or regressed, some partially due to injury and personal issues. So yeah, as you say, we don't know what the issues are. We also don't know how much of a problem it is. Talent may be a bigger issue and major league player development may also be a big issue. Of course it is some combination of the three, but I won't pretend to be able to adequately divide the blame.

As far as your last paragraph, in the thread where that post came from I consistently said I suspect the O's minor league player development is poor so obviously I am not saying that there aren't teams that do it much better. There is clearly room for improvement in all facets of the organization and I do think they need to put a great deal more emphasis on acquiring and developing young talent.

[SteveO]

1. I think you need to think about what your expectations are for a typical 2nd Round pick.

2. Reimy looks like a .450 SLG/.350 OBP caliber bat. I'd argue there's enough power there for him to be a .500 SLG guy, too.

3. Defensive complaints are fine -- which is why I posed that consideration to mweb in my post you quoted.

4. He was drafted at age 22, debuted at age 25 (with "extra time" at AA/AAA and stepped in ready to go -- consider why Tampa has certain policies in place regarding promotion timetables), essentially lost last year due to off-field issues (age 26) and limited time this year (age 27). He turns 28 this month and will be 28 all of next year.

He isn't a superstar, but he's potentially a useful ML player who has had his opportunities limited due to personal issues (his own fault for sure) and a change in management (certainly not his fault).

The assessment you give above is a fair one IMO. I do think that Reimhold can be useful as a spot starter, injury replacement in the OF and fill in at DH. He is a guy that could be a pretty good role player on a decent team. My point is that if Reimhold is the best the Orioles have to offer as a offensive player whom they developed who was not a slam dunk like Markakis, Machado, Weiters etc then this says a lot about why the Orioles are where they are right now. As an organization, moving forward, the Orioles have to be able to produce better than a "useful" player if they expect to be relevant anytime soon.

[Stotle]

The assessment you give above is a fair one IMO. I do think that Reimhold can be useful as a spot starter, injury replacement in the OF and fill in at DH. He is a guy that could be a pretty good role player on a decent team. My point is that if Reimhold is the best the Orioles have to offer as a offensive player whom they developed who was not a slam dunk like Markakis, Machado, Weiters etc then this says a lot about why the Orioles are where they are right now. As an organization, moving forward, the Orioles have to be able to produce better than a "useful" player if they expect to be relevant anytime soon.

I don't disagree that the organization needs to produce more. And I think there is an argument that perhaps Reimold could/should have arrived a more complete player. But I have no real issue with his approach/ability in the box.

[Enjoy Terror]

The Orioles do okay with developing players. How many decent players have the Rays developed since the 2005 draft? Maybe about four: Price, Hellickson, Longoria and Jennings? Certainly not many more than that if any.

Yankees? Gardner, Chamberlain and Robertson. Montero and Nova if you count AFAs. 5.

Red Sox: Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lowrie, Bard and Reddick. 5.

Jays: Romero, Arencibia, Cecil. Jury out on Thames and Snider looks done. 3, maybe 4.

Orioles have Arrieta, Britton, Wieters, Matusz and Reimold. I mean, we're right there with the rest of the AL East with prospects coming through the system.

The Orioles have seemingly refused to want to help their young players with veteran talent. If they do stuff like free agency, they can create better minor league depth. International free agents would help us get guys like Cano and Montero.

Our drafting and development system needs work, of course, but only because the Orioles have chosen to rely on it 100% while other teams use free agency to supplement their farms.

[Stotle]

The Orioles do okay with developing players. How many decent players have the Rays developed since the 2005 draft? Maybe about four: Price, Hellickson, Longoria and Jennings? Certainly not many more than that if any.

Yankees? Gardner, Chamberlain and Robertson. Montero and Nova if you count AFAs. 5.

Red Sox: Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lowrie, Bard and Reddick. 5.

Jays: Romero, Arencibia, Cecil. Jury out on Thames and Snider looks done. 3, maybe 4.

Orioles have Arrieta, Britton, Wieters, Matusz and Reimold. I mean, we're right there with the rest of the AL East with prospects coming through the system.

The Orioles have seemingly refused to want to help their young players with veteran talent. If they do stuff like free agency, they can create better minor league depth. International free agents would help us get guys like Cano and Montero.

Our drafting and development system needs work, of course, but only because the Orioles have chosen to rely on it 100% while other teams use free agency to supplement their farms.

I think your lists of developed players are....incomplete.