Preaching patience with Chris Davis...

[Pickles]

His defensive metrics have always bounced around somewhere between below average and very poor, and his Fans Scouting Reports have been about average or a tick above. I don't think he's ever been a good defensive player.

Well, if I put much stock in defensive metrics, this might sway me.

[DrungoHazewood]

Must we continue with this fallacy?

Correlation doesn't equal...

Of course connecting hitting performance over a tiny sampling of at bat to playing a handful of games at a position is absolutely, completely, and totally absurd. But you can't convince everyone of that...

[wildcard]

Must we continue with this fallacy?

Correlation doesn't equal...

Prove it. Sounds like just your opinion. The numbers are right there for everyone to see. He has hit as a DH and 1B but not when he plays the outfield. Even he has said he has to concentrate of his field while in the outfield because he is not used to playing there. It very likely that where Davis plays of defense or as a DH effects his hitting.

[Pickles]

The baseline assumption with Chris Davis has to be that his true talent is about a 100 OPS+ with a K:BB ratio of about 5:1. He's 26 with 1400 MLB PAs. The vast majority of the time someone at that age with that experience is not going to have a spike in performance. Could he? Sure, but you certainly can't expect it. For 2013 you have to pencil in a league-average performance (which is below average for a negative-defensive player playing 1B/LF/DH).

I don't know if it's quite that rare. Plenty of 26 years olds are still developing as players. The K:BB ratio is what is holding him back the most, but that's the most static so that doesn't bode well for him. I don't expect a tremendous leap from him, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some growth as a hitter to manifest itself in the next 2 years or so.

[Flash- bd]

Prove it. Sounds like just your opinion. The numbers are right there for everyone to see. He has hit as a DH and 1B but not when he plays the outfield. Even he has said he has to concentrate of his field while in the outfield because he is not used to playing there. It very likely that where Davis plays of defense or as a DH effects his hitting.

I don't have to prove it, because common sense dictates that a guy that's been switching between DH and 1B and not getting regular ABs all year long would not suddenly lose his offensive skills because he makes a successful position change to an arguably less-demanding position, especially when said guy is incredibly streaky and it's far more plausible to attribute the offensive drop in that time to said streakiness instead of some half-baked theory that somehow he magically lost his offensive skills by moving from 1B/DH/bench to regular LF, or is thinking about what he's going to do in LF while he's hitting, or something equally as ridiculous...

You're the one making the assertion. I'm just pointing out that the assertion is rather absurd. There's more burden of proof on me than you.

[DrungoHazewood]

Well, if I put much stock in defensive metrics, this might sway me.

So you don't even believe surveys of fans who watch players?

[Pickles]

So you don't even believe surveys of fans who watch players?

You mean guys like Old Fan?

Unfettered democracy is not a good way to evaluate things scientifically imo.

I'll take my own eyes, and the eyes of professional evaluators over defensive metrics and fan surveys.

[wildcard]

I don't have to prove it, because common sense dictates that a guy that's been switching between DH and 1B and not getting regular ABs all year long would not suddenly lose his offensive skills because he makes a successful position change to an arguably less-demanding position, especially when said guy is incredibly streaky and it's far more plausible to attribute the offensive drop in that time to said streakiness instead of some half-baked theory that somehow he magically lost his offensive skills by moving from 1B/DH/bench to regular LF, or is thinking about what he's going to do in LF while he's hitting, or something equally as ridiculous...

You're the one making the assertion. I'm just pointing out that the assertion is rather absurd. There's more burden of proof on me than you.

Sounds like you are pretty close minded. And your language is the second coming of Sports Guy. For all I know you are Sports Guy.

Believe what you want. I will not try to prove anything to you. But I think anyone to looks will find that Davis' down turn in hitting happen about the same time he started playing in the outfield.

[Flash- bd]

Sounds like you are pretty close minded. And your language is the second coming of Sports Guy. For all I know you are Sports Guy.

Believe what you want. I will not try to prove anything to you. But I think anyone to looks will find that Davis' down turn in hitting happen about the same time he started playing in the outfield.

Ignoring your attempts to turn this into a personal argument:

If Davis' down-turn in hitting is attributable to his switch to OF (it's absolutely true that his OPS peaked at .893 right before his switch to RF), then why is he 2/11 with 2 singles, a BB, and 4 Ks (which equates to a nearly identical slash line as his .163/.219/.276/.495 since June 14 when his OPS peaked at .893) in his 3 DH starts since then? Has his switch to OF also magically deprived of him of his skills to return to the DH position and hit?

For that matter, if negligible position switch is such a vital factor in batting success, why not discuss the equally large difference in his splits between RF/LF? .446 in RF and .626 in LF....so perhaps it's just that Chris Davis is a really good hitting DH, a nearly as good hitting 1B, a really really terrible hitting RF, but then also a only somewhat terrible LF. It's starting to make sense for me now...Here's another amazing fact: Chris Davis' plate discipline significantly spikes when he is playing LF instead of RF, and DH instead of 1B. His AVG/OBP delta as a 1B is just .24 while it's an impressive .84 at DH. In LF he has a nice .74 delta, but when he plays RF his approach is significantly worse with only an AVG/OBP delta of .43. Amazing. He must be a really sensitive fellow.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Prove it. Sounds like just your opinion. The numbers are right there for everyone to see. He has hit as a DH and 1B but not when he plays the outfield. Even he has said he has to concentrate of his field while in the outfield because he is not used to playing there. It very likely that where Davis plays of defense or as a DH effects his hitting.

Interesting how so many people are going with this "prove it" line, when literally nothing can be proved in arguments like this. Since Davis looks very comfortable in the OF, I see absoloutely no reason why his offense would be affected by him playing the OF. He is concentrating on playing the OF when he's batting or is it his batting practice time is taken away to work on playing the OF? Either way, seems kinda week. He is getting regular AB's and that's the important thing. I just don't take much stock in a small amount of anecdotal evidence.

Also, in one sentence you say he hit at DH and in another you say the DH effects him?

[markdublya]

I like Davis a lot and would definitely run him out there every day...but the concern for me is his steady decline:

Apr- .922 OPS

May- .829

June- .659

July- .589

[wildcard]

Interesting how so many people are going with this "prove it" line, when literally nothing can be proved in arguments like this. Since Davis looks very comfortable in the OF, I see absoloutely no reason why his offense would be affected by him playing the OF. He is concentrating on playing the OF when he's batting or is it his batting practice time is taken away to work on playing the OF? Either way, seems kinda week. He is getting regular AB's and that's the important thing. I just don't take much stock in a small amount of anecdotal evidence.

Also, in one sentence you say he hit at DH and in another you say the DH effects him?

Don't know what I said that make you think this. Clearly he hits best at DH.

I can't explain why Davis doesn't hit when playing the OF. The stats just say he doesn't. He you want to say SSS, that's fine. But let see if Buck keeps playing him there if McLouth comes up.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Don't know what I said that make you think this. Clearly he hits best at DH.

I can't example why Davis doesn't hit when playing the OF. The stats just say he doesn't. He you want to say SSS, that's fine. But let see if Buck keep playing him there if McLouth comes up.

Fair enough. So your point was that hitting at DH effects him positively then. Most players don't think that way.

[wildcard]

7]Ignoring your attempts to turn this into a personal argument:

[/b]

If Davis' down-turn in hitting is attributable to his switch to OF (it's absolutely true that his OPS peaked at .893 right before his switch to RF)' date=' then why is he 2/11 with 2 singles, a BB, and 4 Ks (which equates to a nearly identical slash line as his .163/.219/.276/.495 since June 14 when his OPS peaked at .893) in his 3 DH starts since then? Has his switch to OF also magically deprived of him of his skills to return to the DH position and hit?

For that matter, if negligible position switch is such a vital factor in batting success, why not discuss the equally large difference in his splits between RF/LF? .446 in RF and .626 in LF....so perhaps it's just that Chris Davis is a really good hitting DH, a nearly as good hitting 1B, a really really terrible hitting RF, but then also a only somewhat terrible LF. It's starting to make sense for me now...Here's another amazing fact: Chris Davis' plate discipline [i']significantly[/i] spikes when he is playing LF instead of RF, and DH instead of 1B. His AVG/OBP delta as a 1B is just .24 while it's an impressive .84 at DH. In LF he has a nice .74 delta, but when he plays RF his approach is significantly worse with only an AVG/OBP delta of .43. Amazing. He must be a really sensitive fellow.

Ridiculous and absurd were two of Sports Guys favorite words in his attacking style. Kind of interesting that you use the same words. If you think that that is a personnel attack I suggest you read that post where you used those words.

[wildcard]

Fair enough. So your point was that hitting at DH effects him positively then. Most players don't think that way.

Some players hate to DH. Some really don't want to do well at DH because they are afraid they will be classified as not being able to play the field. However, some players accept DH as a way to get at bats. Luke Scott didn't like to DH but figured out how to be productive there in order to stay in the lineup. Jim Thome likes to DH because he realizes he can't play the field any more. Davis doesn't seem to have any problem being a DH.