Jump to content

Dan Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"


Orsino

Recommended Posts

Sorry, maybe a slight exaggeration on my part. The direct quote was "We don't like the cutter. We don't like the cutter as an effective pitch." I'm just pointing out that it has been quite the effective pitch when used properly.

Well they seem to have data that not too many pitchers are very effective with it. I don't think that means if you have a veteran pitcher that is effective (i.e Andy Pettite) with it, that you make him stop using it. I find it kind of interesting that they don't consider Mo Rivera's pitch a cutter when everybody else does, but as I think about it, it kind of makes sesne. Most cutters typically don't have a lot of movement like Mo's does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 154
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Sorry, maybe a slight exaggeration on my part. The direct quote was "We don't like the cutter. We don't like the cutter as an effective pitch." I'm just pointing out that it has been quite the effective pitch when used properly.

Actually if you add the next line of the quote it provides important insight...

"...Name me all the great pitchers that used it as their primary pitch in the big leagues."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can guarantee that almost no one thinks any of this.

No, you can't guarantee anything. I'm not judging the philosophy. I'm simply saying that if you have a philosophy, you follow it. Don't do things half assed. If the organization doesn't like the cutter, ban it from being used by our 19 yr old phenom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tillman's velocity was inconsistent before he ever used the cutter. Tillman's velocity went up this year while using the cutter. That's all you need to know (to know you can't make some - sorry, lazy - causation determination.) .

Well, that's obviously anecdotal in itself. I believe the theory is that using (actually overusing the cutter) does make FB velocity go down over time. Apparrently that's what DD/Peterson believe and something that I've certainly heard professed by others (Jim Palmer off the top of my head) in the past.

Heres one of DD's quotes from the article:

First of all, the cut fastball, we don't like it as a pitch, OK? And we don't like it for young pitchers because it takes away from the development of their curveball, which is a better pitch long-term and also, the velocity of their fastball. So we encourage development of an overhand breaking ball that has depth along with command of their fastball and, of course, velocity and movement will get the hitter out."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

but in this article he sounds defensive in a fairly off-putting way to me.

I agree with your take on the tone and maybe that is just DD's way but it does seem defensive. I am really not sure why he did this interview on this topic. Speculating here but it appears the Bundy/Organization relationship is not good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, you can't guarantee anything. I'm not judging the philosophy. I'm simply saying that if you have a philosophy, you follow it. Don't do things half assed. If the organization doesn't like the cutter, ban it from being used by our 19 yr old phenom.

So I assume then you applauded AM's conviction of Grow the Arms/Buy the Bats?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, you have to look at it relative to other pitches, how it's used, and what kinds of pitchers generally use it. Tillman went to a cutter when he was struggling as a means of trying to minimize contact, for instance. If it's often a go-to pitch for struggling pitchers, then it's no wonder that its values would be lower. That doesn't mean it's a terrible pitch.

It's a shame they're too busy doing this six months ago to read your posts. You think they haven't researched all of this extensively?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, that's obviously anecdotal in itself. I believe the theory is that using (actually overusing the cutter) does make FB velocity go down over time. Apparrently that's what DD/Peterson believe and something that I've certainly heard professed by others (Jim Palmer off the top of my head) in the past.

Heres one of DD's quotes from the article:

I'm making no other causation point than about Tillman. Tillman is not an exhibit for velocity issues arising from a cutter. I don't debate that pitchers who use the cutter may experience diminished velocity, though I'd like to see the numbers and how they regressed that for all other confounding factors (including the fact that most velocity diminishes over time).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a shame they're too busy doing this six months ago to read your posts. You think they haven't researched all of this extensively?

Plenty of things get researched extensively. What you do with the data is what matters. My guess is that this is probably a non-issue over the long haul (provided stubbornness on the part of DD and the Bundy clan don't get in the way). But I'm also not going to assume that their conclusions are reliably or ineluctably derived from the data.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, I would caution anyone reading too much into DD's "off-putting" tone to the media. He's not good at..uh.. being social. I prefer when he doesn't say a whole lot and it did get him in some trouble in the Sox organization. But his good baseball mind and scouting ability is what he brings to the table. I tend to toss out his weird comments.

Right. I mean, the burden-shifting was a bit disingenuous (I mean, you're the one arguing that a pitch sucks, you back it up, DD ;) ), but he's not really doing anything other than being archly Socratic. It's fine. Like I said, I doubt it amounts to much, but I'll still keep it in my back pocket because it's not a shining example of good PR or a really well-explained doctrine (as of yet).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and I give to you, Roy Halladay's fangraphs pitch type the last 5 years: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1303&position=P#pitchtype

Well, the point was that not a lot of pithers are effective with it.

I wish they had asked DD about Halladay. Most cutters don't typically have the movement that Halladay/Rivera have and DD was pretty exact in in pointing that out, and that he considers Mo's pitch to not be a cutter. There's obviously a pretty big difference between a Tommie Hunter cutter and a Halladay cutter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the point was that not a lot of pitccers are effective with it.

I wish they had asked DD about Halladay. Most cutters don't typically have the movement that Halladay/Rivera have and DD was pretty exact in to pointing that out and that he considers Mo's pitch to not be a cutter. There's obviously a pretty big difference between a Tommie Hunter cutter and a Halladay cutter.

Right. The issue as applied to Bundy is: well, #$%*, isn't he more Halladay than Hunter?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and I give to you, Roy Halladay's fangraphs pitch type the last 5 years: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1303&position=P#pitchtype

Maybe I am mis-reading this but it appears he has thrown 4 seamers more that cutters over that span 44% to 24% and in arguably his best season in that span. 2008 (given him pitching the AL East) his ratio was 47% 4 seam to 16% cutter...

Wouldn't that make his cutter not the primary pitch?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


  • Posts

    • We're going to get bomb today. Irvin, need I say more?
    • Did most people miss the words elite and controlled in the title? Surprised at how easily so many people said no, when I thought the bullpen was a consensus weakness of this team. I like Kjerstad too and you don't trade him for just anyone. But if you can get a difference making 8th/9th inning guy, who isn't a rental, that seems worth considering. 
    • No problem. Like I said I think Mike is open minded. Big difference obviously from shagging pre game to playing in games. Said Mayo is working on OF behind the scenes. 
    • Gametime:  1:35 pm ET Forecast:  55 degrees and sunny Matchup:  Cole Irvin (L) vs Seth Lugo (R) Lineups See first post Orioles Bench Austin Hays (R) Jorge Mateo (R) James McCann (R) Ramon Urias (R) Orioles Bullpen Available Mike Baumann  (R)  0.1 IP, 2p last night Yennier Cano (R)  0.1 IP, 15p last night;  1.0 IP, 20p Wednesday Danny Coulombe (L)  0.2 11p last night;  0.2 IP, 10p Wednesday  Craig Kimbrel  (R)  1.0 IP, 9p last night;  1.0 IP, 12p Wednesday Dillon Tate  (R)  1.0 IP, 20p Friday;  1.1 IP, 21p Monday Jacob Webb (R)  0.1 IP, 15p Wednesday Probably Available Yohan Ramirez (R)  0.1 IP, 10p last night Not Available Keegan Akin (L)  0.2 IP, 11p last night;  0.1 IP, 16p Friday;  0.1 IP, 3p Wednesday
    • He didn’t cover that. Just said he responded well to the injection. Said in January he felt weird sensation ramping up. He felt like at time he could throw threw it. Credited rest and staff working with him. Build him back slowly in minors.    I enjoy listening to Front Office show and with Sirius app can go back and listen. 
    • I saw he was just put on the IL for a knee sprain. I hope it's not serious.
    • Orioles 1 Henderson       SS 2 Rutschman        C 3 O’Hearn          DH 4 Santander       RF 5 Mountcastle    1B 6 Mullins            CF 7 Cowser           LF 8 Westburg        3B 9 Holliday          2B Irvin, C              SP Royals 1 Garcia, M         3B 2 Witt Jr.             SS 3 Pasquantino    1B 4 Perez, S          DH 5 Melendez         LF 6 Renfroe           RF 7 Frazier             2B 8 Fermin              C 9 Hampson        CF Lugo, S              SP
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...