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Orioles offer Wieters extension, but no deal seems close

Greg

By Greg
in Orioles Talk

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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A's and Rays (among others) have done fairly well over the years with low cost catching platoons. Yankees are doing quite well at it this year also. As stated, our current lack of catching depth doesn't help much. Doesn't mean we can't put something together over the next year or so.

Well, in 2012:

O's had a .729 OPS at C, 25 HR, 93 RBI

A's had a .587 OPS at C, 14 HR, 69 RBI

Rays had a .636 OPS at C, 11 HR, 59 RBI.

Advantage Orioles, I'd say. 2011 is similar.

I'll admit the Yankees are close to us right now offensively, though we'll see where it is when the year is over.

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sevastras All-Star

sevastras

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I think the point is that the team has done quite well overall, not that they've done so well at the catching position itself.

When you have elite pitching, making your catcher a nonfactor is quite easy. With our less than elite pitching, Wieters still looks great. What would the discussion be with Wieters if he had Price, Shields, Moore, Hellickson, and that bum Cobb that had that huge ERA of 4.03?

I realize that it is very difficult to quantify the impact that Wieters has had with our subpar pitching and if he has really improved any of their performances or not. It is really impossible if you ask me. But when you say that Tampa has done quite well without a top catcher, I have a hard time lending merit to that argument when the worst SP they have sports a 4.03 through an entire season.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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When did they have the chance? Should they have picked a catcher instead of Longoria? A catcher instead of Price? They picked best player available. You can't hit on every pick. Last I looked not too many teams hit on that elite catching prospect you talk of. The point is that you can win without an elite catcher just like you can win without an elite 2B. The point is not to overpay for very good and NOT ELITE.

No they didn't.

They had Posey at #1 on their board in 2008 and they picked Beckham instead because they didn't want to pay Posey's price.

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CA-ORIOLE Hangout Grand Counsel

CA-ORIOLE

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Well, in 2012:

O's had a .729 OPS at C, 25 HR, 93 RBI

A's had a .587 OPS at C, 14 HR, 69 RBI

Rays had a .636 OPS at C, 11 HR, 59 RBI.

Advantage Orioles, I'd say. 2011 is similar.

I'll admit the Yankees are close to us right now offensively, though we'll see where it is when the year is over.

1. You need to look at WAR and not raw stats.

2. It was a particularly poor year for the A's last year.

3. What did they pay for those guys?

4. What will they be paying for similar guys in the future?

5. Yeah, Wieters has been good, but what will we be paying for the future as compared to what type of production he likely be giving?

I guess I view Wieters similar to Markakis. Wieters more harshly because of suspected durability and versatility issues. They'd be nice guys to have longer term, but probably not very good economics.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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When did they have the chance? Should they have picked a catcher instead of Longoria? A catcher instead of Price?

You conveniently omitted Tim Beckham, picked no. 1 when Posey was available. ;)

It's great having 20/20 hindsight.

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scOtt Hangout Grand Counsel

scOtt

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My point is that CS has a lot to do with the ability of pitchers to be quick to the plate. Improved times to the plate would/could be a reason for the increased % of CS by Wieters.

I think all the emphasis on TTTP (in the general sense, any club) gives the catcher the chance to be better at CS. Matt takes advantage of those chances. Better than most or all others. That's the diff imo.

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AlbionHero Major Leaguer

AlbionHero

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The biggest thing to me is the consistent trend that defensive catchers fall off by the time they hit 30. It happened to Pudge, it happened to Gary Carter, its happened to pretty much any significant defensive catcher out there. So do you sign Wieters to a big contract, knowing you'll probably only get an average defensive catcher with a .750 OPS past 30? If its like a 5 year, 50-60 million dollar contract, maybe. Anything more than that isn't something the Orioles should do, especially with the other players also vying for extensions.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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The biggest thing to me is the consistent trend that defensive catchers fall off by the time they hit 30. It happened to Pudge, it happened to Gary Carter, its happened to pretty much any significant defensive catcher out there. So do you sign Wieters to a big contract, knowing you'll probably only get an average defensive catcher with a .750 OPS past 30? If its like a 5 year, 50-60 million dollar contract, maybe. Anything more than that isn't something the Orioles should do, especially with the other players also vying for extensions.

Yadier disagrees. That being said I am long on record in not being interested in extending Wieters past ~32.

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AlbionHero Major Leaguer

AlbionHero

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Yadier disagrees. That being said I am long on record in not being interested in extending Wieters past ~32.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7007&position=C

Yadier is having his worst defensive year in a long time and he just hit 30. Its not really a huge sample, but I don't think he suddenly defies that trend or anything either.

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AlbionHero Major Leaguer

AlbionHero

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Last season he turned 30, he won the Fielding Bible award and the Gold Glove.

You see, this is what I mean by nitpicking. You don't suddenly get worse on your birthday. Its a gradual trend that around 30 years old catchers decline defensively.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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Yadier is also 5' 11" tall and not 6' 5".

Which is definitely a factor in why I wouldn't extend him past 32.

I am down with, and coined the phrase (I think) Catch him into the ground and let someone else pay for the decline.

I will say that getting rid of him before they have an adequate replacement will be catastrophic.

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sevastras All-Star

sevastras

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Let's see. You talk about Wieters possible effect on the pitching staff and then mention Tampa Bay with a run of the mill catcher and a great pitching staff. Hmmm.

Not even sure what you are trying to get at here. We are talking about a team that had one of the best pitching staffs in baseball and a nonfactor catcher and a team that pieced together a pitching staff and a great catcher. The team with the great catcher made it to the playoffs, the team with the nonfactor catcher didnt.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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You see, this is what I mean by nitpicking. You don't suddenly get worse on your birthday. Its a gradual trend that around 30 years old catchers decline defensively.

All players decline defensively as they age. Defensive is a youth aligned skill. It is very possible that Trout's best defensive year is already behind him.

I think Yadier has a long way to fall before he isn't plus on defense.

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