Disappointed in attendance?

[DrungoHazewood]

While I'm glad that the Orioles' attendance increased last year and is increasing again this year, I do think the increase would be significantly larger if the Nats were not in DC. Frankly, the O's have not gotten as big a bump in 2013 as I would have anticipated. In 2005, the O's drew 32,404 a game despite having a losing record that year and for the previous 6 years. The Nats, who were in their maiden season, drew 33,728 per game. Now in 2013, after both teams made the playoffs in 2012, the O's are drawing 28,619 per game and the Nats are drawing 33,369. So, the Nats have recovered all the way back to 2005 levels (which was their all-time high in DC), while the Orioles are still almost 4,000 per game below 2005 levels (which, by the way, were nowhere close to the Orioles' all-time high). I wasn't expecting the Orioles to erase the effects of 14 years of losing in 1.4 seasons of winning, but I'm now questioning whether the Orioles can ever draw 3 million fans in a season again (they drew 3.7 mm in 1997 and were still over 3 million in 2001, Cal Ripken's last season). So, while the Orioles certainly are viable, they may have a ceiling on their financial success.

What we don't have a firm grasp on is how attendance-related revenues have gone up or down over time. Does their current pricing scheme for tickets, parking, concessions, etc. extract more money per fan than it did in the OPACY sellout days? It's possible or even likely that max revenue is not the same attendance point as max attendance. I think that would only happen if demand was quite a bit greater than the supply of tickets.

[Frobby]

What we don't have a firm grasp on is how attendance-related revenues have gone up or down over time. Does their current pricing scheme for tickets, parking, concessions, etc. extract more money per fan than it did in the OPACY sellout days? It's possible or even likely that max revenue is not the same attendance point as max attendance. I think that would only happen if demand was quite a bit greater than the supply of tickets.

Forbes tracks the ticket revenues, but parking and concessions are anyone's guess. I'll observe that I have great parking in Lot A (right at the stadium door) that only costs me $10, and I don't think the price has been raised in many years. By contrast, I pay FORTY FREAKING DOLLARS to park in an unpaved lot across the street from Nationals Park.

[TonySoprano]

Forbes tracks the ticket revenues, but parking and concessions are anyone's guess. I'll observe that I have great parking in Lot A (right at the stadium door) that only costs me $10, and I don't think the price has been raised in many years. By contrast, I pay FORTY FREAKING DOLLARS to park in an unpaved lot across the street from Nationals Park.

Kudos to you and your disposable income. I park and ride the subway to Nats park myself.

On topic, the Ravens took away a sizable chunk from the Orioles attendance as well. Many people can't afford to attend both the Ravens and the Orioles.

I've also noted several times before, attendance dropped 400,000 in year 1 A.R. (After Ripken) 2002. In 2004, still a year before the Nats arrived, and attendance was down 26.1% from 1997. This was after the Orioles had an attendance bump from the previous season (2003 was down 33.9% from 1997)

[waroriole]

So, the increase in attendance will coincide with an increase in payroll, right? Right?

[Frobby]

On topic, the Ravens took away a sizable chunk from the Orioles attendance as well. Many people can't afford to attend both the Ravens and the Orioles.

I've also noted several times before, attendance dropped 400,000 in year 1 A.R. (After Ripken) 2002. In 2004, still a year before the Nats arrived, and attendance was down 26.1% from 1997. This was after the Orioles had an attendance bump from the previous season (2003 was down 33.9% from 1997)

I don't think the Ravens are much of a factor. There are only 20-30,000 people who control Ravens season tickets (I'm assuming most purchased 2-4 seats as part of their package). Even if none of those people attend Oriole games, that leaves millions of people who have no tickets.

[atomic]

While I'm glad that the Orioles' attendance increased last year and is increasing again this year, I do think the increase would be significantly larger if the Nats were not in DC. Frankly, the O's have not gotten as big a bump in 2013 as I would have anticipated. In 2005, the O's drew 32,404 a game despite having a losing record that year and for the previous 6 years. The Nats, who were in their maiden season, drew 33,728 per game. Now in 2013, after both teams made the playoffs in 2012, the O's are drawing 28,619 per game and the Nats are drawing 33,369. So, the Nats have recovered all the way back to 2005 levels (which was their all-time high in DC), while the Orioles are still almost 4,000 per game below 2005 levels (which, by the way, were nowhere close to the Orioles' all-time high). I wasn't expecting the Orioles to erase the effects of 14 years of losing in 1.4 seasons of winning, but I'm now questioning whether the Orioles can ever draw 3 million fans in a season again (they drew 3.7 mm in 1997 and were still over 3 million in 2001, Cal Ripken's last season). So, while the Orioles certainly are viable, they may have a ceiling on their financial success.

They could raise ticket prices and still have more fans next year if they are competitive. I see 3 million being reached if they have a couple more years like last year and make the playoffs.

[TonySoprano]

I don't think the Ravens are much of a factor. There are only 20-30,000 people who control Ravens season tickets (I'm assuming most purchased 2-4 seats as part of their package). Even if none of those people attend Oriole games, that leaves millions of people who have no tickets.

If those "only 20-30,000 people" bought Orioles ticket packages instead, do the math what that could be on total attendance. Let's say only 25% of them took the money and each bought season tickets instead of Ravens tickets, that's 30,000-45,000 (6 game), 65,000- 97,500(13 game), or 405,000-607,500 (full season) more through the turnstiles.

[atomic]

If those "only 20-30,000 people" bought Orioles ticket packages instead, do the math what that could be on total attendance. Let's say only 25% of them took the money and each bought season tickets instead of Ravens tickets, that's 30,000-45,000 (6 game), 65,000- 97,500(13 game), or 405,000-607,500 (full season) more through the turnstiles.

But the whole theory is bogus from the start. Most people who own Ravens season tickets can easily afford to go to Orioles games as well.

[DrungoHazewood]

So, the increase in attendance will coincide with an increase in payroll, right? Right?

They're still crossing their fingers and hoping Sears doesn't notice they got to keep Nate McLouth before all the layaway payments were finished.

[DrungoHazewood]

But the whole theory is bogus from the start. Most people who own Ravens season tickets can easily afford to go to Orioles games as well.

What? That doesn't make any sense. Let's say you have $5000 allocated for Ravens tickets. Why would that mean you also have thousands of dollars for Orioles tickets? I'd imagine there are a lot of people whose entire disposable incomes (and then some) are taken up by one or the other.

[atomic]

What? That doesn't make any sense. Let's say you have $5000 allocated for Ravens tickets. Why would that mean you also have thousands of dollars for Orioles tickets? I'd imagine there are a lot of people whose entire disposable incomes (and then some) are taken up by one or the other.

Most people who have Ravens season tickets don't spend their entire disposable income on them. Most people I know who have Ravens season tickets are quite well off (Dentists, Doctors, Business owners) and attend Orioles games as well. Not the whole season. Ravens only play 8 home games.

[DrungoHazewood]

Most people who have Ravens season tickets don't spend their entire disposable income on them. Most people I know who have Ravens season tickets are quite well off (Dentists, Doctors, Business owners) and attend Orioles games as well. Not the whole season. Ravens only play 8 home games.

I would hazard a guess that most Ravens season ticket holders (and Orioles, too) are not Dentists, Doctors, nor Business Owners. In fact, I know Ravens season ticket holders who are lower-level DoD employees and run-of-the-milll defense contractors. I know Redskins season ticket holders who are civil service retirees, receptionists, etc.

[Dipper9]

Most people who have Ravens season tickets don't spend their entire disposable income on them. Most people I know who have Ravens season tickets are quite well off (Dentists, Doctors, Business owners) and attend Orioles games as well. Not the whole season. Ravens only play 8 home games.

This is a truly generic statement and is quite frankly offensive. So only "rich" people have Ravens season tickets huh?

I know plenty of people who traded in season tickets to the Orioles when the Ravens came to town, and who cannot afford both, so they watch the Orioles at home for free. I guess you only hang with the wealthy people????

[Pedro Cerrano]

I attend 20-25 O's games a year (but not a season ticket holder....yet) AND I'm about to fork over a few grand for Ravens' PSLs.

I'm also a lawyer and I'm super-duper rich!

[Frobby]

I would hazard a guess that most Ravens season ticket holders (and Orioles, too) are not Dentists, Doctors, nor Business Owners. In fact, I know Ravens season ticket holders who are lower-level DoD employees and run-of-the-milll defense contractors. I know Redskins season ticket holders who are civil service retirees, receptionists, etc.

Here's where the Ravens argument falls apart: the Ravens have been in Baltimore since 1996. So far as I know, their games have always been sold out, or close. So what attendance are the Ravens taking away now, that they weren't also taking away when the O's were drawing 3.7 mm fans?