We seriously need to consider another closer at this point

[BobbyWoontz]

Of course Buck is seeing the same thing as everyone else. The difference is that he's the manager. He can't just throw his players under the bus or complain about how terrible they are like fans can. Not unless he wants a full-scale player revolt.

Well, he can put him on the DL----for any damn reason he can think of!

[Norfolk orioles]

After the 14 seasons of stink, this sentence (about a closer being terrible for 2 weeks for a team,and manager, that's been over .500 for a year+) for some reason really made me lol. This is in no way as worse as having to watch the likes of Devi Cruz, Travis Driskill, Mike DeJean, etc., etc.

I didnt say it was. But this team has talent and playoff aspirations and is underperforming in the bullpen, which is where the manager has the most impact.

We have a World Series caliber offense, a World Series caliber defense, a mediocre pitching staff and an atrocious bullpen. When you consider how good the defense is, it just makes the pitching stand out as that much worse!

[Norfolk orioles]

Way too early to say this. Pitchers, like hitters, go through ups and downs. Let's not make this out to be more than it is. He's in a slump, and we'll just have to wait it out, rather than panic and replace him.

This dates back to last year and the Yankees playoff series. And he was shaky even when he was closing games at the beginning of this year.

Don't act like this is just some two week only problem.

[El Gordo]

There are some folks in this thread I wouldn't want in my lifeboat.

Are we in the lifeboat already? I didn't even know it was the Titanic, and we haven't even started to rearrange the deck chairs. Shouldn't we do that first?:laughlol:

[oriolesmagic9]

Four wins over the Nats will turn those frowns upside down! Also, Sabathia and company got all blowed-up today.

[Norfolk orioles]

Based on what? Because he doesn't immediately pull a guy after a couple of bad outings? When you're managing players -- particularly veterans -- it's not as simple as saying, "Oh, you had a couple bad games, you're gone." The only thing that'll accomplish is losing the clubhouse. Players will always be looking over their shoulders if they go into an 0-for-8 drought or have two bad starts or relief appearances in a row. Managers, almost by rule, need to have a longer leash with players than fans do. Look at Manny Machado -- people thought Buck was crazy to put him in the #2 spot, and were calling him a fool when Machado struggled for the first couple weeks. Buck stuck with him and it paid off big time.

Now obviously there reaches a certain point where you have to make a change if the struggles continue. It's a matter of finding the right balance so that you're not giving players a ridiculously short leash, but you're also not sticking with them too long to the team's peril. I trust that Buck has a better sense of when he's reached that point than fans do, simply because he has a better idea of players' personalities and what's going on in the clubhouse.

I probably would've pulled JJ at that point, too. But keep in mind that Patton -- by your own admission -- has also been terrible this year. Are you saying that if he had brought in Patton and he blew the game, you wouldn't still be insisting that Buck screwed up?

Johnson was "a very shaky closer" before this stretch? Really? The guy who saved 50 out of 53 games last year, and his first 14 of this year? That sounds to me like you're revising the past based on what's happening in the present.

Several points.

One, yes, buck is known around the league as being stubborn. It's why he has never lasted longer than 4 years with any ball club. Do you honestly think that is because of any other reason that personality??? We've seen him stick with Gregg way too long, we saw him stick with Flaherty until his batting average dipped below .100, we saw him run strop into the ground and now he's running Johnson into the ground. Now I'm not blaming him for the performance necessarily, just that he left strop and Johnson twisting in the wind when everyone saw they had nothing. You talked about handling veterans but at some point the clubhouse is going to get sick of playing winning baseball over and over again only to blow it in the ninth over and over again. He needs to help Johnson by taking the pressure of him. Every time he runs him out there in the 9th from now on he will be carrying a huge weight with him and that's not good for anyone!

Secondly, yeah, Patton has also struggled but at least he was fresh! And honestly, as a lefty specialist, if he couldn't come on completely fresh and get 1 out against Kawasaki, a lite hitting shortstop, then he needs to join strop on the "injury list", especially after he walked him the last time which set up strop's demise.

By pulling Johnson, he would have saved his arm, allowed Patton the chance at some redemption and possibly given us a shot to win.

Instead he left Johnson out there dying on the vine and he allowed Kawasaki to get ahead and he crushed a meatball into left center which only further killed Johnson's confidence and the teams momentum. We could have taken 3 of 4. Frankly, we could have swept them if it wasn't for the bullpen.

Showalter, as a manager, has the most control of any aspect of the game of the bullpen and how they are used and our pen flat out sucks.

As I said we have the offense and defense to go to the WS. I truly believe that. But the pitching and the bullpen, yes, including the bullpen management, will not get us anywhere close.

To your last point. Yes, he did save 14 in a row to start the year. But he also lost two games during that stretch in which he was brought into a tie game and gave up the game winning run. So while he technically saved 14/14, he lost two tied games and now has tacked on 4 out of 5 blown saves to that.

Which would make him 15/21 counting the tie games. Or if you go back to last year and the playoffs, he's 17/25.

17/25 isn't good enough from a closer. And some of them have been in pretty epic fashion.

And again, I'm not asking for a permanent hiatus. Just take him out of the high pressure situations for a little and let him regain some command in a few low stakes innings with the understanding that when he gets it back, he can become the closer again.

I don't think that's unreasonable. Buck instead buck has insisted he will stay closer no matter what and that's just unacceptable. If he does something different in the next game that's fine, but as of right now, buck looks, oh what's the word........stubborn?

[sfosfan]

At this point, I don't mind bringing out JJ in the ninth for a save when the lead is 2 or 3. But if one batter gets on base, take him out and bring in someone else. I would prefer Matusz come in then and get his 1-3 batters out, than wasting him in the 7th or 8th. But definitely warm up someone else up at the same time. Closer's don't normally warm up with someone else, so maybe that's all it takes to get JJ back on track. Not sure that's Buck's style though.

[Norfolk orioles]

Why does everyone think we need to find a new closer?

I have a question for those people, why do we need a closer? Why can't we pitch to match ups in the 9th like we do in the 6th, 7th, and 8th?

I fully support this! It's so @ss backwards to play matchup baseball for the 6th, 7th and 8th only to completely abandon the strategy in the most important inning of all.

I understand if you have someone like mo rivera, chapman or Kimbrel who is basically unhittable, but Johnson is a contact pitcher and rarely, even when he was in his 50/50 streak, has clean innings.

The only guys who should truly "close" no matter the situation are high k guys who can let a guy get on and leave him there by missing bats. Johnson is not a high strikeout guy and if he can't get his secondary pitches over consistently, he's not even a good reliever, much less a dominant closer.

I fully support the idea of playing matchups all the way to the end of the game. If it uses the bullpen too much, so be it, at least well be in contention by the trade deadline and then we can bring in a quality reliever or two from a mom contender go replentish the pen like the rangers have done.

Obviously we shouldn't give away a Chris Davis for a relief pitcher but if we have a chance to make a deep run in the playoffs, we can afford to part with Avery or Britton or arrieta for a quality late inning reliever who has a proven track record.

I'm just saying, Johnson was never even THAT dominant, even when he saved 50/50......he was still putting a lot of guys on base. Now that he's lost control, there no telling when he will right the ship.

All I'm saying is, a hard decision needs to be made. You say he might "lose the clubhouse" by pissing off a vet, but another way to lose a clubhouse is to keep making the same mistake over and over and sending a guy with no control out with a lead and costing the team wins.

Both can hand negative consequences, but at least one gives us a better chance to win and that's what vets REALLY want.

[BobbyWoontz]

Put Johnson back as the 8th inning guy again, until he finds his bearings. O'Day and Hunter can share the closing duties.

[Brooks The Great]

Several points.

One, yes, buck is known around the league as being stubborn. It's why he has never lasted longer than 4 years with any ball club. Do you honestly think that is because of any other reason that personality??? We've seen him stick with Gregg way too long, we saw him stick with Flaherty until his batting average dipped below .100, we saw him run strop into the ground and now he's running Johnson into the ground. Now I'm not blaming him for the performance necessarily, just that he left strop and Johnson twisting in the wind when everyone saw they had nothing. You talked about handling veterans but at some point the clubhouse is going to get sick of playing winning baseball over and over again only to blow it in the ninth over and over again. He needs to help Johnson by taking the pressure of him. Every time he runs him out there in the 9th from now on he will be carrying a huge weight with him and that's not good for anyone!

Secondly, yeah, Patton has also struggled but at least he was fresh! And honestly, as a lefty specialist, if he couldn't come on completely fresh and get 1 out against Kawasaki, a lite hitting shortstop, then he needs to join strop on the "injury list", especially after he walked him the last time which set up strop's demise.

By pulling Johnson, he would have saved his arm, allowed Patton the chance at some redemption and possibly given us a shot to win.

Instead he left Johnson out there dying on the vine and he allowed Kawasaki to get ahead and he crushed a meatball into left center which only further killed Johnson's confidence and the teams momentum. We could have taken 3 of 4. Frankly, we could have swept them if it wasn't for the bullpen.

Showalter, as a manager, has the most control of any aspect of the game of the bullpen and how they are used and our pen flat out sucks.

As I said we have the offense and defense to go to the WS. I truly believe that. But the pitching and the bullpen, yes, including the bullpen management, will not get us anywhere close.

To your last point. Yes, he did save 14 in a row to start the year. But he also lost two games during that stretch in which he was brought into a tie game and gave up the game winning run. So while he technically saved 14/14, he lost two tied games and now has tacked on 4 out of 5 blown saves to that.

Which would make him 15/21 counting the tie games. Or if you go back to last year and the playoffs, he's 17/25.

17/25 isn't good enough from a closer. And some of them have been in pretty epic fashion.

And again, I'm not asking for a permanent hiatus. Just take him out of the high pressure situations for a little and let him regain some command in a few low stakes innings with the understanding that when he gets it back, he can become the closer again.

I don't think that's unreasonable. Buck instead buck has insisted he will stay closer no matter what and that's just unacceptable. If he does something different in the next game that's fine, but as of right now, buck looks, oh what's the word........stubborn?

Good points. I think Buck is one of the most stubborn managers in the game, to a fault. Leaving J.J. Hardy in the 2-spot in the lineup last season for months, when he was an awful option there, and one of the worst OBP hitters in baseball, is a perfect illustration of Buck's stubbornness. He needs to react to slumps more quickly and realize that moving a guy out of a role can be more important to the team's success than not hurting their confidence.

[Norfolk orioles]

Good points. I think Buck is one of the most stubborn managers in the game, to a fault. Leaving J.J. Hardy in the 2-spot in the lineup last season for months, when he was an awful option there, and one of the worst OBP hitters in baseball, is a perfect illustration of Buck's stubbornness. He needs to react to slumps more quickly and realize that moving a guy out of a role can be more important to the team's success than not hurting their confidence.

Forgot about that one. It was also tough to justify leaving Flaherty on the 25 man roster all season last year.

To say buck isn't stubborn is silly to me. It's not always a bad thing, it's not always a good thing, but he is stubborn, whether some folks want to admit it or not.

[Norfolk orioles]

Just remember ONE thing. It doesnt matter what you or I or anybody on this board thinks. It ONLY matters what Showalter thinks, and he is LOYAL

to a fault with his veterans. He will stay with his veterans virtually without contradiction. I realize they are all veterans in the pen at this point, but

Buck will NOT make a change with JJ until JJ says he cant go or unless there is something physically wrong.

For this reason(although admittedly Garcia was so-so in his last start) he will stick with pitchers like Garcia over young pitchers and even send the

younger pitchers back to the minors after 1 poor start(see: Steve Johnson, Zach Britton, etc).

Buck is very much a "veterans" guy, and 'ousidet of the box' thinking isnt his calling card.

You could see after the leadoff double to Encarnacion after having him at 0-2, that Johnson was coming up high or out of the strike zone again.

He refused to use ODay and got Patton warming up way too late in my opinion(not that Patton has been any great shakes either).

I dont know if he was just protecting his player, but when Thorne asked if he would use Johnson tomorrow, Buck said "sure".

Really?

After 2 straight outings and something like 57 pitches?

Johnson should NOT pitch for at least 3 games and even then, in low pressure situations. He just doesnt have his command right now, and

everyone around the league knows it.

When he said out loud he'd pitch him tomorrow, not in a general sense, but literally tomorrow against the nats, my head nearly exploded.

Thorne said "even after 37 pitches" and buck still said he would.

I'm sorry, but that's insanity.

[wildcard]

For me, JJ is still the closer, but I've got to have a Plan B on days when he's struggling. You can't have him throw 35 pitches in an inning, especially when he pitched the day before. He's lost the right to just stay out there until the game is over no matter what.

This sounds right to me. O'Day will probably close tomorrow but after that they are going to have to hold O'Day out to use him in the 9th if Johnson does not have his stuff in the ninth.

I am guessing that the O's probably send Valencia down to add another pitcher in the pen to help in the 6th/7th. Someone like Stinson now and Britton as soon as he is available. (Britton just pitched and needs 4 days off). There will have to push Hunter and/or Matusz to the 8th. (Hope Hunter is OK.)

I think Johnson problems will cause a re-ordering of the pen.

The O's have plenty of hitting right now but they need help in the pen.

[tntoriole]

Forgot about that one. It was also tough to justify leaving Flaherty on the 25 man roster all season last year.

To say buck isn't stubborn is silly to me. It's not always a bad thing, it's not always a good thing, but he is stubborn, whether some folks want to admit it or not.

Stubborn fans of Buck stubbornly refuse to admit his stubbornness..

[JLee2027]

This dates back to last year and the Yankees playoff series. And he was shaky even when he was closing games at the beginning of this year.

Don't act like this is just some two week only problem.

Just not true. A typical closer is successful about 80-85% of the time. JJ was running over 90%. What do you expect perfection? That's too high. You have to accept the fact that sometimes they fail. And now that the law of averages has caught with JJ, it means he should see success ahead.

We aren't a playoff team unless JJ succeeds. He's the best option. I don't see Hunter, Matusz, or O'Day reaching the needed 80-85% level.