We seriously need to consider another closer at this point

[BobbyWoontz]

Today's game is in the bottom of the 8th. In the top of the 8th, the O's scored once to increase their lead from 5-2 to 6-2.

How many of you had the reaction I did, which was to say "Thank God, they have a 4 run lead, so Buck won't have to bring in JJ"?

He said he would yesterday if the situation called for it. Buck never lies!:rolleyestf:

[duffaphonic]

I'm sure that O'Day and Matucz will see a save op once in a while from here on out. Why not?

[scOtt]

No offense to some of my best friends on this board... JJ is our closer. Period. DOD got the call today because JJ needed rest. And DOD is especially valuable because he can do that, easily. But Jim is still The Man. Buck: The wind doesn't direct our course, but the sails do.

[atomic]

No offense to some of my best friends on this board... JJ is our closer. Period. DOD got the call today because JJ needed rest. And DOD is especially valuable because he can do that, easily. But Jim is still The Man. Buck: The wind doesn't direct our course, but the sails do.

Kevin Gregg had a better year in 2011 than JJ has had this year. At this point I wouldn't trust him with a five run lead. Buck lost the game the other night by leaving him in the game. Left-hander up and JJ had awful appearance no reason not to bring Patton in. I guess Buck has that long contract so he doesn't have to worry about results but JJ is awful. 5 loses already? And he looks a mess. You knew he was going to blow that game against the Blue Jays.. Everyone knew it. At a certain point you have to give someone else the role. Or eliminate the role and leave whoever is pitching well in the game.

[Flosman]

Kevin Gregg had a better year in 2011 than JJ has had this year. At this point I wouldn't trust him with a five run lead. Buck lost the game the other night by leaving him in the game. Left-hander up and JJ had awful appearance no reason not to bring Patton in. I guess Buck has that long contract so he doesn't have to worry about results but JJ is awful. 5 loses already? And he looks a mess. You knew he was going to blow that game against the Blue Jays.. Everyone knew it. At a certain point you have to give someone else the role. Or eliminate the role and leave whoever is pitching well in the game.

You know this is crazy talk, 4 appearances ago JJ was the "best closer" in the AL and it is Bucks fault he depended on him after a couple bad outings? Some of this is luck catching up with JJ, some of this is making some bad pitches but I don't think it is time to pull the plug on JJ just yet. It sure hurts to know we would be in first place if JJ would have done what we have become used to, but we need JJ to get back on track a hell of a lot more than we need to satisfy some need for our pound of flesh. If he is not hurt he is the closer for at least a while longer, IMO.

[Davew]

Kevin Gregg had a better year in 2011 than JJ has had this year. At this point I wouldn't trust him with a five run lead. Buck lost the game the other night by leaving him in the game. Left-hander up and JJ had awful appearance no reason not to bring Patton in. I guess Buck has that long contract so he doesn't have to worry about results but JJ is awful. 5 loses already? And he looks a mess. You knew he was going to blow that game against the Blue Jays.. Everyone knew it. At a certain point you have to give someone else the role. Or eliminate the role and leave whoever is pitching well in the game.

I agree that Buck lost that game. I kept yelling at the t.v., "why are you leaving him in the game". lol I understand that he is the closer and didn`t have a problem with buck bringing him in for the ninth. But when you see that he is missing the plate badly, and they are spraying hits all over the field, the manager shouldn`t just sit there and watch the ship sink. Isn`t the goal to win the game? Who cares about the guys ego or feelings. After he gave up a run, and showed no control, he should have been pulled. Don`t sit there and watch helplessly as 4 runs score. It was Buck`s job as a manager to make a move and he refused.

I`m not a big believer in a "closer" anyway. Just pitch whoever is hot or go with matchups, just like you do at any other time during the game. Why does the ninth have to be any different. Sometimes I think those guys over think things. When you bring in a new pitcher, you never know if he has his stuff or not. So if you have a reliever pitching the 8th and he is on, why not leave the hot guy in? Why take a chance on a new pitcher not having his stuff? Like others have posted, if it`s a 4 run lead, they don`t bring the closer in. Who cares if it`s a 1 run or 4 run lead.The object is to win. Bring in the hot guy, get three outs and win the game. Seems Buck is worried about JJ`s feelings or ego. He should put his big boy pants on. If you are struggling, then you are struggling. If you can`t protect a 3 run lead with a clean slate for one inning and if you`ve blown 3 out of your last 4 chances with a clean slate to start the inning, then you can`t be trusted to come in everytime.

[auzzy98]

Kevin Gregg had a better year in 2011 than JJ has had this year. At this point I wouldn't trust him with a five run lead. Buck lost the game the other night by leaving him in the game. Left-hander up and JJ had awful appearance no reason not to bring Patton in. I guess Buck has that long contract so he doesn't have to worry about results but JJ is awful. 5 loses already? And he looks a mess. You knew he was going to blow that game against the Blue Jays.. Everyone knew it. At a certain point you have to give someone else the role. Or eliminate the role and leave whoever is pitching well in the game.

I could not agree more with this. I do not understand the whole closer "role" in baseball. If a reliever comes in in the 7th with a 3 run lead and he gives up 3 straight hits to start the inning and gives up the lead, he gets taken outta the game...period! Why is it any different for JJ? If whatever reliever is in and is pitching lights out at the end of the 8th, he should be left in. He already is in a rhythm and JJ is not! I just don't understand the "loyalty" to the closer thing. It baffles me. The job is to get the win, not make JJ feel good about himself.

[ShaneDawg85]

Kevin Gregg had a better year in 2011 than JJ has had this year. At this point I wouldn't trust him with a five run lead. Buck lost the game the other night by leaving him in the game. Left-hander up and JJ had awful appearance no reason not to bring Patton in. I guess Buck has that long contract so he doesn't have to worry about results but JJ is awful. 5 loses already? And he looks a mess. You knew he was going to blow that game against the Blue Jays.. Everyone knew it. At a certain point you have to give someone else the role. Or eliminate the role and leave whoever is pitching well in the game.

You're really going to use an entire season's worth of numbers to try and demerit what, a week's worth of appearances? And no, spare me the ALDS crap, that's a completely different animal and can happen to anybody. Flosman has it right, prior to the last home stand JJ was looking like an All Star again, and threads like these were nonexistent. Now all of a sudden he's worse than Kevin Gregg? That's 100% asinine.

Did Buck leave him in too long, probably. But he pitched the day before and looked downright filthy. It wasn't asking much of him to come out the next day with a larger lead after he had looked as good as he did the day before. So no, pardon me if I didn't know he was going to blow that game against the Blue Jays, when he hadn't the very night before.

[Davew]

I could not agree more with this. I do not understand the whole closer "role" in baseball. If a reliever comes in in the 7th with a 3 run lead and he gives up 3 straight hits to start the inning and gives up the lead, he gets taken outta the game...period! Why is it any different for JJ? If whatever reliever is in and is pitching lights out at the end of the 8th, he should be left in. He already is in a rhythm and JJ is not! I just don't understand the "loyalty" to the closer thing. It baffles me. The job is to get the win, not make JJ feel good about himself.

I totally agree.It seems a manager (larussa) came up with this closer thing, and now every manager does it. I bet there are managers who don`t like it, but feel they have to abide by the closer role because they don`t want to rock the boat. So they just go along with it because that`s how it is supposed to be. There are a lot of situations in baseball where that is the case...pitch counts, righty vs lefty, average vs a particualr pitcher, etc. Sometimes just go with the hot pitcher or guy with the hot bat and toss statistics out of the window. Why not just have a robot with a stat sheet and let him make decisions based off of numbers?

[Davew]

Did Buck leave him in too long, probably. .

Probably? lol Uh...that`s an understatement

[webbrick2010]

JJ 1 out of his last 5 save opportunities

The catcher for that save Chris Snyder

Coincidence?? Probably but I will say that I think that Chris was setting a very nice low target for JJ

Wieters is so big that he catches borderline low pitches with his glove thumb down and that naturally causes the glove to travel even lower and out of the strike zone.

I have been watching this very carefully... an a lot of other catchers are able to get low enough to catch the knee high (or slightly lower) pitches into their body with their glove thumb up. This results in much less movement both before and after the actual catch of the pitch.

When we play Tampa, watch Molina and then with that as a reference watch Wieters. I think the difference is very noticeable and is a problem for our sinker ball pitchers

[UpstateNYfan]

First, I have to apologize for Sunday's lost. I think it was my fault. I walked into a bar on the Jersey Shore, ordered a drink, looked at the score 5-2, top of the ninth. Looked at my wife and friends and stated, "It looks like a perfect day, O's win and Yanks and Sox look like losers too." Big mouth, loses game. Will never go that bar again.

I hate loses, especially with two or more run leads in the 9th. I believe all relief pitchers, closer or not, will save that game 95% (guessing) of the time (including Arrieta and Britton). I believe BS thought it was probably a good time to bring JJ to work on his issues. Obviously it didn't work and had a negative affect in helping JJ. I know JJ has quality pitches. Most here say four. I think four may be the problem. He needs one quality pitch he can depend on locate and throw for strikes. If it is the sinker, live with it and die with it. It seems to me that he starts messing around with all his pitches and gets lost in the process. If I was a batter I wouldn't take a swing until he proves he can throw a strike. I didn't see the game, but saw him against the Jays and he didn't look healthy (like a cold) and hadn't a clue where any pitch was going. Scuff the mound and repeat The body language was poor and probably helped the Jays confidence.

JJ is the closer. But BS has to help him get through this rough patch. If all this has been mentioned previously I apologize. I couldn't rant until I got home. No more Avenue D restaurant in Long Branch, NJ for me.

[auzzy98]

Probably? lol Uh...that`s an understatement

Seriously, Buck should have taken him out after he gave up the first TWO hits. You can just tell when JJ doesn't have it. I told me wife as soon as he gave up the first hit that i just had this feeling we were gonna lose.

JJ just seems like he has gotten so lucky the last year or so. I am on edge every time he comes in the game, cuz it could go any direction. I just think we have some other guys that are pitching well enough to give it a shot when the right situation presents itself.

[primetime]

Based on watching JJ during this slump, coupled with checking the Pitch F/X data on Fangraphs, JJ has used his off speed stuff significantly less and less effectively. The results speak for themselves, opposing hitters sit on the fastball and just wait for him to elevate one.

Jim Duquette was on the Fan the morning after the 1st blown save vs the Padres. He mentioned sitting with some SD front office in the press box; the SD execs said the gameplan was to attack JJ early in the count, try to get a fastball to drive.

Whether Wieters needs to call more off speed stuff, JJ lacks confidence in his off speed, JJ knows he's not executing his off speed stuff well right now or some combo of all 3, I think the way out of this rut is to start utilizing more of his arsenal; instead of just leaning on the fastball/2 seamer. Teams are getting too many looks at it and simply teeing off.

In the blown save on Sunday, JJ threw 4 off speed pitches out of 37 total pitches. 3 curves, 1 changeup and none of them were close to the strike zone. So you have a bad combo of lack of use and lack of execution of the off speed pitches. I understand that you waste a breaking ball on 0-2 to perhaps induce a chase but if there's no threat of an off speed pitch being a strike, you're going to be in trouble.

Does it suck that JJ has blown 4 saves in the last 12 games? Yeah of course it does. That said, JJ has the ability to work through this and right the ship. He just has to find the feel for his breaking ball and changeup, then he and Wieters have to not be afraid to use it early in the count.

[Ommaculate]

I am ready to share my feelings on this issue. I am leaning towards agreeing with the "find a new closer" crowd. Johnson was great during the season last year but failed in the playoffs. Isn't what it all comes down to is performing in the playoffs? What if the same thing happens in the playoffs this year? The writing is on the wall.