Expectations for the "Solid Six"

[Moose Milligan]

Bingo! Nailed it. OBP is among the major concerns going into next year. I am tired of the "we are who we are" argument. Jim Duquette said on 105.7 the fan that the " Orioles biggest downfall was their free swinging style."

Perceptions are reality. I perceive that the bullpen and the rotation were the biggest downfall. I'll take a team that's 4th in the league in runs scored every year.

[El Gordo]

Manny doesn't have to be better than Hardy. He just needs to be Manny. Hardy will be gone after next year, anyway. If they extend him at age 32, they will alienate Manny, who wants to play SS. I think you can't be afraid to make the moves you need to make. And if trading Hardy and Norris for a young, team controlled left fielder who plays great defense and puts up a .340 or better OBP, you don't miss a beat.

The decision whether to extend Hardy won't come much before the TD if it comes at all. Just which young, team controlled left fielder who plays great defense and puts up a .340 or better OBP, do you think we are getting for 1 year of Hardy and 2 of Norris? Alienate Manny. Please. :rolleyestf:

[mdbdotcom]

The decision whether to extend Hardy won't come much before the TD if it comes at all. Just which young, team controlled left fielder who plays great defense and puts up a .340 or better OBP, do you think we are getting for 1 year of Hardy and 2 of Norris? Alienate Manny. Please. :rolleyestf:

I don't know. If they can't make a good deal, then they shouldn't do it. But if they can, they should give it serious consideration. That's all I'm suggesting.

Alienate Manny? Absolutely a concern. He wants to play SS and I doubt he will sign a long term deal if he's playing 3B for the next three years. Do you want to lose him to free agency at 26? I don't.

[El Gordo]

I don't know. If they can't make a good deal, then they shouldn't do it. But if they can, they should give it serious consideration. That's all I'm suggesting.

Alienate Manny? Absolutely a concern. He wants to play SS and I doubt he will sign a long term deal if he's playing 3B for the next three years. Do you want to lose him to free agency at 26? I don't.

If he is that much of a diva then he can walk at 26. If they decide to extend Hardy it's because they feel he can play at his GG level for a couple more years. If not then they'll make him a qualifying offer take the pick, and move Manny to SS. If you can't suggest an actual trade 'the point? I'd trade Manny if I could get the right package. We need TOR SP, if we can't get that, we are better off keeping our players. There are plenty of good LF options we can get if we are just willing to spend a little, not a lot, of money.

[WEAVERMAN]

Chen faded over the last two months of the season. He has done it both years he has been with the O's. That is not good enough. Got to do better to get to the WS.

Chen was good enough to beat NY in the 2012 division series, he'll bounce back in 2014 with an improved change up.

[wildcard]

Chen was good enough to beat NY in the 2012 division series, he'll bounce back in 2014 with an improved change up.

That would be great. But the odds are not in his favor after two years and two swoons in each year.

[El Gordo]

That would be great. But the odds are not in his favor after two years and two swoons in each year.

What odds are you referring to. A SSS based on two seasons in MLB. He's 26. It's quite possible he can improve as he adjust to the different schedule.

[Frobby]

For me, it's all about runs. Last I heard, that's what decides who wins and loses the games. We were tied for 4th in runs. Boston, Detroit and Oakland all were ahead of us. Obviously, OBP had a lot to do with it, since we hit more home runs than any of those teams.

I like fourth. I'd sign up for that again.

Perceptions are reality. I perceive that the bullpen and the rotation were the biggest downfall. I'll take a team that's 4th in the league in runs scored every year.

Don't get me wrong, I was pleased with 4th in 2013. That's the highest we've been since who knows when. But, we should still be looking for ways to improve, and the best way to do that is find some guys who can get on base and set the table for our big boppers. I'm OK with our "solid six" having a .320ish OBP and hitting 157 homers, but the offense would be better if the other guys produced an OBP better than last year's .294, that's all I'm saying.

And Moose, I agree that our pitching deficiencies were more glaring than our hitting deficiencies. But there's no reason you can't work on both. We improved by 33 runs scored from 2012 to 2013, and I'd like to see us do that again, which would move us from tied for 4th to a strong 3rd (probably).

[wildcard]

What odds are you referring to. A SSS based on two seasons in MLB. He's 26. It's quite possible he can improve as he adjust to the different schedule.

Chen was 28 in July.

[Frobby]

Chen was 28 in July.

Apparently he stopped aging when he left Japan.

I agree with El Gordo, it's too soon to conclude that Chen is going to fade every season based on 2012-13. There's not even a reason Chen should have been tired this year, having missed two months of the season. I just think he had some command issues that could have come up at any time but happened to arise at the end of the year. It's atypical of him and I expect him to bounce back.

By the way, I wonder if he had any history of fading at the end of the season over in Japan. If that's truly an issue for him, there's no reason for it not to have arisen over there (well, their season is a bit shorter, but it would still be interesting to know if he was a first-half pitcher over there).

[wildcard]

Apparently he stopped aging when he left Japan.

I agree with El Gordo, it's too soon to conclude that Chen is going to fade every season based on 2012-13. There's not even a reason Chen should have been tired this year, having missed two months of the season. I just think he had some command issues that could have come up at any time but happened to arise at the end of the year. It's atypical of him and I expect him to bounce back.

By the way, I wonder if he had any history of fading at the end of the season over in Japan. If that's truly an issue for him, there's no reason for it not to have arisen over there (well, their season is a bit shorter, but it would still be interesting to know if he was a first-half pitcher over there).

Pitching in Japan is different. Starters pitch once a week. Have 6 days rest between starts. He has had to pitch of 4-5 days rest in the majors. Seems to wear him down.

To say that two years in not long enough to evaluate a pitchers is to ignore the facts. Managers and coaches has have much less time to evaluate a talent then that is many cases. At 28, Chen probably is what he is. And a .500 record with a 4.00 ERA is not what the O's need from him. If he could be packaged for a guy would could go 13-8, the O's should make that move.

His year end fading is problematic. Do it once and its just a blip on the screen. Do in twice and it let's you know you can't afford to go through it again. Not when you are trying to win a World Series ring.

[Frobby]

Pitching in Japan is different. Starters pitch once a week. Have 6 days rest between starts. He has had to pitch of 4-5 days rest in the majors. Seems to wear him down.

To say that two years in not long enough to evaluate a pitchers is to ignore the facts. Managers and coaches has have much less time to evaluate a talent then that is many cases. At 28, Chen probably is what he is. And a .500 record with a 4.00 ERA is not what the O's need from him. If he could be packaged for a guy would could go 13-8, the O's should make that move.

His year end fading is problematic. Do it once and its just a blip on the screen. Do in twice and it let's you know you can't afford to go through it again. Not when you are trying to win a World Series ring.

We will be revisiting this post next year. I think you are way off base if you think limited data of two years is any kind of definitive trend. I'm done arguing about it, we'll see what happens in the future.

[weams]

Do in twice and it let's you know you can't afford to go through it again. Not when you are trying to win a World Series ring.

Our plan is to be consistently competitive, play in the playoff lottery often, and win the World Series when our numbers come up.

Playing to win the World Series make you have seasons like the Nationals or the Blue Jays.

[wildcard]

Our plan is to be consistently competitive, play in the playoff lottery often, and win the World Series when our numbers come up.

Playing to win the World Series make you have seasons like the Nationals or the Blue Jays.

Trading Chen in a package for a better starter is not even close to what the Blue Jays did. Then you have to think about the players that Boston added last winter and how it produced the best team in the AL this year.

The O's should always try to improve. Internally, externally, every way the can.

[wildcard]

We will be revisiting this post next year. I think you are way off base if you think limited data of two years is any kind of definitive trend. I'm done arguing about it, we'll see what happens in the future.

Hopefully by next year Chen will be with another team and the O's will have a better starter in the rotation.