Note to Boras---Wieters rated the 9th worst "framing"-

[weams]

Why is that too much of an assumption? Why do you think it would be significantly different?

I mean, do you reject all home run totals because they are highly dependent on pitcher faced, stadium, wind speed? There are elements of subjectivity there, too.

Other than an inside a park home run, the definition is exact. Over the fence. Unplayable. There is a difference.

[Can_of_corn]

Why is that too much of an assumption? Why do you think it would be significantly different?

I mean, do you reject all home run totals because they are highly dependent on pitcher faced, stadium, wind speed? There are elements of subjectivity there, too.

I certainly view HR totals within the context of the era and ballpark.

[weams]

In only 80 starts!

Just ridiculous. It is not even possible.

[Satyr3206]

Other than an inside a park home run, the definition is exact. Over the fence. Unplayable. There is a difference.

Game, Set, Match.

[Can_of_corn]

Just ridiculous. It is not even possible.

Even of the surface it is, the logic breaks down. If he was that valuable then why did he only get 80 starts?

[Kalkan]

Other than an inside a park home run, the definition is exact. Over the fence. Unplayable. There is a difference.

If the fence is 200 feet in one park and 400 feet in another park. That is an inexact measure. Your yard stick is not the same.

If one pitcher is Josh Stinson and another pitcher Clayton Kershaw. That is an inexact measure. Yard stick is not the same.

If one player plays predominantly in a place with a strong head wind and another does not. Inexact.

[Satyr3206]

If the fence is 200 feet in one park and 400 feet in another park. That is an inexact measure. Your yard stick is not the same.

If one pitcher is Josh Stinson and another pitcher Clayton Kershaw. That is an inexact measure. Yard stick is not the same.

If one player plays predominantly in a place with a strong head wind and another does not. Inexact.

What stadium has ever had a fence at 200 feet? The only one I can think of that was close was the Coliseum years ago.

[Can_of_corn]

What stadium has ever had a fence at 200 feet? The only one I can think of that was close was the Coliseum years ago.

Polo grounds were pretty messed up.

LF: 280 feet

LCF bullpen: 447 feet

CF: 480 feet

RCF bullpen: 440 feet

RF: 258 feet

Backstop: 74 feet

[Kalkan]

What stadium has ever had a fence at 200 feet? The only one I can think of that was close was the Coliseum years ago.

Is this an honest response?

I am not sure how to respond because it does not refute my point.

Maybe it is just a tangential response.

[Stotle]

I have no idea if the statistic really indicated that Molina was worth 50 runs just in framing. I just believe that if it did, it is flawed.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=18896

To be clear, I am not defending the exact 50-run number...that said...

A chunk of those 50 runs would be double-counted in the pitching staff runs saved. Orgs have different approaches to assigning weight. So, rather than adding 50 runs to Molina's runs saved, it's chopped up between what is credited directly to Molina and what has already been taken into account with the staff. I believe some orgs discount it as a whole for the catcher, but not that the staff's overall production would have decreased by a certain amount with an "average" frame in place.

This isn't someone saying Molina is worth an ADDITIONAL 5 wins over 80 games.

[Kalkan]

Even of the surface it is, the logic breaks down. If he was that valuable then why did he only get 80 starts?

His bat, throwing, and blocking skills would have to be horrendous. Or he breaks down easily.

No idea. It sounds incredibly fanciful. Looks like the official BP measures though refined that article's approach and came up with 24 runs saved, not 50.

[Kalkan]

To be clear, I am not defending the exact 50-run number...that said...

A chunk of those 50 runs would be double-counted in the pitching staff runs saved. Orgs have different approaches to assigning weight. So, rather than adding 50 runs to Molina's runs saved, it's chopped up between what is credited directly to Molina and what has already been taken into account with the staff. I believe some orgs discount it as a whole for the catcher, but not that the staff's overall production would have decreased by a certain amount with an "average" frame in place.

This isn't someone saying Molina is worth an ADDITIONAL 5 wins over 80 games.

Maybe that is why the final tally is at 24 runs for Molina.

[Stotle]

If the fence is 200 feet in one park and 400 feet in another park. That is an inexact measure. Your yard stick is not the same.

If one pitcher is Josh Stinson and another pitcher Clayton Kershaw. That is an inexact measure. Yard stick is not the same.

If one player plays predominantly in a place with a strong head wind and another does not. Inexact.

Right. We are comfortable comparing home run totals because everyone is dealing with the same external variables. Everyone will face their share of Kershaws and replacement level arms. There is absolutely no question that players' see fluctuation in home run totals due to these external variables, but we deem it negligible (as we should).

I don't understand ignoring catcher framing. Understand the context and the fact that defining how that "value" should be treated (in concept with others, as a catalyst for others, dependent on others, etc.) is still in flux. But ignoring it completely? If so, ignore all prospect rankings, any impact Buck supposedly has on the team's performance, etc. There is a lot less backing those valuation than pitch framing...

[Can_of_corn]

Is anyone ignoring it completely?

[Stotle]

Is anyone ignoring it completely?

Effectively, yes.