Bloomberg says Camden Yards was a stupid idea

[Tony-OH]

That is true about Memorial Stadium and I think the Orioles might help the city with all the games they play and the taxes the city can charge. But I have a hard time that the Ravens stadium is nothing but a huge loss for the city. The state could have spend the money trying to make the BMA and the Zoo into world class attractions and that probably would have drawn more people into visiting. Paris has more visitors than anyplace and people aren't going their for the sports.

As that you Paul Tagliabue?

No one is taking a vacation to see zoo and I don't even know what a BMA is so I'll go out on a limb and say no one is taking a vacation to Baltimore for that either. Sport teams bring in hundreds or millions of dollars in to the Baltimore and surrounding economies.

[Tony-OH]

No argument here, the only way you could view OPACY the "worst" is that it was a model for how ownership could force municipalities to foot the bill for stadiums.

That would be a valid argument.

Right. But unfortunately, that's the way just about all of the stadiums deals get made. Great deal for the owners, yet we still seem to be a small market team. Strange.

[atomic]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-25/rebirth-eludes-baltimore-as-camden-reality-lags-promises.html

That is the link to the article. And it makes sense. While Camden Yards is nice for people who go to the games overall it doesn't provide a return on the investment to the state. Ravens Stadium has to be a terrible investment for the state as not only did it get a free stadium for the Ravens...fans had to buy seat licenses to see the game and there are basically no seat available for fans like me. We are subsidizing sports teams that pay their players ridiculous salaries. In no way does this make any sense. Those who dont' see that are the same people who think players are worth 5.2 million per WAR. They dont' think logically at all.

The Orioles are paying players 15 million a season and pay the actual guys working at the ballpark next to nothing. No way is this is a good move for the city. Camden Yards looks nice and is a great place to see the game but truthfully the Orioles should have either built the stadium themselves or they should be paying 30+ million a year in rent.

[atomic]

As that you Paul Tagliabue?

No one is taking a vacation to see zoo and I don't even know what a BMA is so I'll go out on a limb and say no one is taking a vacation to Baltimore for that either. Sport teams bring in hundreds or millions of dollars in to the Baltimore and surrounding economies.

If you don't know what the BMA is than I feel sorry for you. Do you have a life outside of sports? And people definitely take vacations to see Art Museums and Zoos. The only reason I went to Madrid was to see the Prado Museum and Reina Sof?a museum and those places were packed. 8 million people go to the Louvre each year. I am sure a lot of people are going to NYC for the art museums ..probably a lot more than go to see the Yankees.

Edit: 6,115,881 go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC each year. The Yankees dont' get that much in attendance.

[DrungoHazewood]

No argument here, the only way you could view OPACY the "worst" is that it was a model for how ownership could force municipalities to foot the bill for stadiums.

That would be a valid argument.

Wasn't the "we are leaving unless you give us $500M" model well established prior to OPACY? Everybody threatened to move to Tampa for a while, and that got $billions poured into MLB owners' pockets.

[mojmann]

If you don't know what the BMA is than I feel sorry for you. Do you have a life outside of sports? And people definitely take vacations to see Art Museums and Zoos. The only reason I went to Madrid was to see the Prado Museum and Reina Sof?a museum and those places were packed. 8 million people go to the Louvre each year. I am sure a lot of people are going to NYC for the art museums ..probably a lot more than go to see the Yankees.

Edit: 6,115,881 go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC each year. The Yankees dont' get that much in attendance.

Thank you for saying this. It's shocking how little stock Americans put into their cultural institutions. The BMA is magnificent and so is the Walter's.

But Camden Yards was one of the best things, if not the best thing, to happen to modern Baltimore.

[Can_of_corn]

Wasn't the "we are leaving unless you give us $500M" model well established prior to OPACY? Everybody threatened to move to Tampa for a while, and that got $billions poured into MLB owners' pockets.

But Baltimore is the blue print, much moreso then New Comisky.

[DrungoHazewood]

Those who dont' see that are the same people who think players are worth 5.2 million per WAR. They dont' think logically at all.

Actually the SABR crowd is pretty well united in the belief that stadiums have little economic benefit to anyone besides MLB owners and players.

[atomic]

Thank you for saying this. It's shocking how little stock Americans put into their cultural institutions. The BMA is magnificent and so is the Walter's.

But Camden Yards was one of the best things, if not the best thing, to happen to modern Baltimore.

Camden Yards was the best thing to happen for MLB baseball fans in Baltimore. Most of the fans to games are from the Baltimore area. I bet everyone can notice that the largest demographic of Baltimore City is very underrepresented at Orioles games. For baseball fans there is no doubt Camden Yards is a wonderful addition to the city but as a use of money to improve the lives of residents of Baltimore City it is not doing much. That is what the article is stating.

[wildcard]

I have had the pleasure of watching the Inner Harbor development over my lifetime. From going to Towson State in the early 70's to working in Baltimore City from the mid 70 through the mid 90's. Now I visit on occasion which is mostly for O's games. Believe me the improvement is overwhelming. The Inner Harbor pavilions that opened in 1980 were a big boost but Camden Yards opening in 1992 was a really important piece. Go downtown on a summer weekend when Boston or New York are in town and then tell me that all of the shops, restaurants, the Science Center and Aquarium don't benefit. It stretches out to Little Italy and Fells Point. People actually want to buy condos and houses downtown now. It wasn't like that at one time. The Inner Harbor and Camden Yard is now a destination. It used to be a place to avoid. And Camden Yards like much of the Inner Harbor would not be there today without public financing. Like it or not.

From Wikipedia:

The Inner Harbor is a historic seaport, tourist attraction, and landmark of the city of Baltimore, Maryland, USA. It was described by the Urban Land Institute in 2009 as ?the model for post-industrial waterfront redevelopment around the world.?[1] The Inner Harbor consists of the end of the Northwest Branch of the Patapsco River and includes any water west of a line drawn between the foot of President Street and the American Visionary Art Museum.

The name "Inner Harbor" is used not just for the water but for the surrounding area of the city, with approximate street boundaries of President Street to the east, Lombard Street to the north, Greene Street to the west, and Key Highway on the south. The harbor is within walking distance of Camden Yards and M&T Bank Stadium. A water taxi connects passengers to Fells Point, Canton, and Fort McHenry.

[TonySoprano]

I am not going to try to defend what Atlanta wants to do nor what Miami did for the Marlins. Camden Yards was financed differently, and not largely on the backs of the taxpayer. Here is what the Bloomberg article conveniently fails to mention

A large part of the funding for Camden Yards came from instant lottery ticket revenue, a politically savvy idea that quelled much opposition to public funding of a stadium complex, said Del. Samuel I. “Sandy” Rosenberg, one of Baltimore’s representatives in Annapolis – and an Orioles season-ticket holder.

source - Baltimore Urban Affairs report

If you remember the year before Camden Yards, Chicago built a new Comiskey Park (now U.S. Cellular) which was the last of the "cookie-cutter stadiums." Camden Yards turned the industry on its head and a bunch of cities wanted a ballpark just like it. I think one of Selig's lasting legacies as commissioner is all the stadiums built in the last twenty years. Twenty new ballparks have been built after Camden Yards.

[Can_of_corn]

I am not going to try to defend what Atlanta wants to do nor what Miami did for the Marlins. Camden Yards was financed differently, and not largely on the backs of the taxpayer. Here is what the Bloomberg article conveniently fails to mention source - Baltimore Urban Affairs report

If you remember the year before Camden Yards, Chicago built a new Comiskey Park (now U.S. Cellular) which was the last of the "cookie-cutter stadiums." Camden Yards turned the industry on its head and a bunch of cities wanted a ballpark just like it. I think one of Selig's lasting legacies as commissioner is all the stadiums built in the last twenty years. Twenty new ballparks have been built after Camden Yards.

There are issues with state lotteries as well.

[atomic]

I am not going to try to defend what Atlanta wants to do nor what Miami did for the Marlins. Camden Yards was financed differently, and not largely on the backs of the taxpayer. Here is what the Bloomberg article conveniently fails to mention source - Baltimore Urban Affairs report

If you remember the year before Camden Yards, Chicago built a new Comiskey Park (now U.S. Cellular) which was the last of the "cookie-cutter stadiums." Camden Yards turned the industry on its head and a bunch of cities wanted a ballpark just like it. I think one of Selig's lasting legacies as commissioner is all the stadiums built in the last twenty years. Twenty new ballparks have been built after Camden Yards.

Instant Lottery revenue still comes from the taxpayer. They had instant lottery long before Camden Yards was built. That money could have been used for something else like cutting taxes or offering college scholarships to state citizens.

[blid]

I agree with a lot of the points in the article: that building a new stadium is not going to "pay for itself" through part-time stadium jobs or other things of the sort, that it doesn't necessarily revitalize the surrounding areas, and that owners shouldn't be able to hold cities hostage. In fact, I think ideally teams should belong to cities, not to billionaires. Then they could be a true point of civic pride, and the profits the team makes in those shiny new stadiums would go back to the cities that built them. An example would be the Green Bay Packers, a team worthy of its loyal following, and whose Green Bay Packers Foundation sends profits to benefit education, civic affairs, health services, human services and youth-related programs.

Of course, that type of ownership is banned going forward and for unfortunate reasons we're probably not going to see more cities owning teams in this country any time soon. So, moving on, back to the publicly funded stadiums idea... One would think it's possible for a city to still make money on one of these deals, constructing a stadium and then extracting rent from the team in exchange for its use. Normally, that might not be the case, because these days building a sports arena is not only expensive, but they also have a short shelf life with expensive maintenance and renovations required. Not only that, because the owners do hold cities hostage, they usually get favorable terms on the deals, or it's assumed the city should take a loss because of the money they're allegedly going to recoup from the "revitalization."

However, Camden Yards seems like it was built to last. Also, as one of the earlier stadiums to be financed this way, it may not have been subject to all the same assumptions about revitalization and the like. I think it's possible that it's not the bad deal Bloomberg makes it out to be. It would probably take further research - edit: Tony provided a nice link after I started writing this post, for the curious, but besides the pride Baltimore fans have in the Park, the article says:

From time to time, such as in the strong attendance years of 2012 and 2013, Camden Yards generates a surplus. In some lower attendance years, the authority has lost money on the ballpark, Raith said.

The state?s payment for debt service at Camden Yards will be $23 million in 2014, Raith said. The city pays $1 million a year.

The Orioles pay rent based on a percent of revenue and the Ravens pay all operating and maintenance expenses, according to a 2012 financial statement. Revenue from admission taxes totaled about $9.8 million in 2012.

The authority also pays for maintenance and upgrades, such as a renovated center field rooftop deck in 2012 to the baseball stadium.

That is to say, it did generate a surplus in the last two seasons. It seems as the Orioles go, so does the stadium deal. One more reason we should be cheering for Angelos to open up his pocketbook.

[TonySoprano]

Instant Lottery revenue still comes from the taxpayer. They had instant lottery long before Camden Yards was built. That money could have been used for something else like cutting taxes or offering college scholarships to state citizens.

Would you prefer that the Orioles still played their games at Memorial Stadium?

Maryland cutting taxes? The no-politics rule I respect prevents me from commenting further but know I'm LMAO.