Bloomberg says Camden Yards was a stupid idea

[atomic]

Would you prefer that the Orioles still played their games at Memorial Stadium?

Maryland cutting taxes? The no-politics rule I respect prevents me from commenting further but know I'm LMAO.

No I don't prefer them playing at Memorial Stadium. That isn't what this topic is about. All of us got something out of Camden Yards being built. We go to a lot of baseball games. That doesn't mean it is a good investment for the state. A lot of people don't go to games or care about sports. Paying people's college tuition is a good investment as college graduate pay more taxes and use less government services.

Just because they wouldn't lower taxes doesn't mean that wouldn't be a better use of the money. We know what they did. We can't change that..I am just arguing it is debatable whether the money was well spent. I don't think there is anyway to justify the state building Ravens stadium. That is obviously a big loser. But even Camden Yards you have to think most of the money spent would have been spent in other areas of the local economy. If only we could schedue all games against Yankees and the Red Sox it might return real value.

[blid]

So according to Tony's article, the Orioles pay the stadium authority $8.7m/year and the lease was 30 years.

From 1992 through 2009, the Orioles’ average rent was about $4.5 million. Because ticket prices have gone up, rent figures have not fluctuated substantially over the past two decades – despite the fact that attendance has plunged, said David Raith, chief financial officer for the stadium authority.

The stadium authority also receives 80 percent of a 10 percent state admissions tax. From 1993 through 2010, this payment averaged about $4.2 million.

These two payment pools from the Orioles amount to about $8.7 million per year.

The state’s income from the Orioles is not likely to increase substantially over the course of the 30-year lease because the state cannot effectively raise taxes on the Orioles: Any tax increase is offset in the stadium lease by a decrease in rent.

Most of this money goes toward paying the debt on the state-constructed stadium, which cost about $110 million to build, Asti said.

So the state fronted a $110m bill, and will likely be paid $261m by the Orioles by the time the deal is over. Granted, there's interest and maintenance to take into account but that doesn't exactly sound like robbery?

“The objective was that we wouldn’t lose any money and [the lease payments] would help the state pay down the debt,” Belgrad said. Covering the state’s debt service on the cost of the project was the stadium authority’s priority, not creating income for the state or Baltimore.

Sounds like it's working as planned. I wonder what happens after the 30-year lease is up? That's less than 10 years away now. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the reason for a lot of these renovations. If the team signs another lease the state will make out even better. Hopefully the Orioles are playing in Camden Yards fifty years from now.

[TonySoprano]

If you don't know what the BMA is than I feel sorry for you. Do you have a life outside of sports?

Yes he does and he spent part of it in Afghanistan. You didn't need to go there to make your point.

Edit: 6,115,881 go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC each year. The Yankees dont' get that much in attendance.

Nah, the Yankees only drew 3.2M in 81 days, paying a lot more per ticket than it costs to go the MMA. Just imagine what the Yankees would draw if they were open 365 days, right?

[weams]

Inner Harbor area was what it is now before Camden Yards ever existed. Camden Yards is a nice stadium but other than the bars like pickles and parking garages I don't know how much it really helped the downtown area. I mean we lost HammerJacks.

I liked HammerJacks.

[weams]

Thank you for saying this. It's shocking how little stock Americans put into their cultural institutions. The BMA is magnificent and so is the Walter's.

But Camden Yards was one of the best things, if not the best thing, to happen to modern Baltimore.

I absolutely agree with all of this.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Nah, the Yankees only drew 3.2M in 81 days, paying a lot more per ticket than it costs to go the MMA. Just imagine what the Yankees would draw if they were open 365 days, right?

But they are only open 81 days a year. That's actually a major reason why stadiums are bad deals for cities (and why Ravens stadium was a much, much worse deal than OPACY).

[weams]

But they are only open 81 days a year. That's actually a major reason why stadiums are bad deals for cities (and why Ravens stadium was a much, much worse deal than OPACY).

But those are 81 great days!

I agree, public funded stadium are usually poor deals. But having a major franchise in your town is not always a poor idea. Especially if you are keeping it from leaving town. It makes a difference between having a second and fourth class city.

[Nigel Tufnel]

But those are 81 great days!

Yep, great for sports fans, no argument about that.

[TonySoprano]

But they are only open 81 days a year. That's actually a major reason why stadiums are bad deals for cities (and why Ravens stadium was a much, much worse deal than OPACY).

I agree on Ravens stadium, but would Baltimore prefer not to host sports teams? We all know the answer to that is "no, it gives us civic pride" I guess the debate is should more of the costs be privately funded and is that practical from a financial standpoint.

[theocean]

Camden Yards is awesome and I'm glad it's there. But the article is right in a way - stadiums bring in less money than they cost to build. I can only imagine how bad the Ravens Stadium is in that respect, especially since PSL's make it impossible for most Baltimore residents to even go and it really chopped up Sharpe Leadenhall and other communities where they built it. Unless you call someone from Harford County, Carroll County, or York, PA as a tourist - I really doubt that tourists are flocking in droves to see the Ravens or Orioles. Personally, I feel that the National Aquarium, the Inner Harbor, or even Fells Point has more of a draw for tourists from far away. Probably a lot come to see DC and then shoot up to Baltimore to check out the Harbor, the Aquarium, and some Edgar Allen Poe / Crabcake / Ft McHenry typical Bmore stuff.

But, Baltimore - once one of the most important cities in America is lately in rough shape, so I think it's important to have professional teams with high-profile stadiums, since they do so much to keep the name of Baltimore in the list of other great American cities. They encourage city pride, which is really important in my opinion. Hopefully, we'll get back there soon - but the imaginary "economic stimulus" of sports stadiums isn't going to get us there.

[Mondo Trasho]

I was going to quote people, but then I realized I'd just be quoting Can of Corn the entire time.

Camden Yards is not the worst example of publicly financed stadiums, but really, the cost of public financing is not worth whatever the alleged benefits are. I would never argue that nothing good came of constructing OPACY and M&T, but, I haven't seen any legitimate research done that concludes publicly financed stadiums are worth the cost.

All of that said, OPACY is a beautiful stadium and the envy of pretty much every baseball fan I know.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I do think it's kind of weird that Bloomberg chose OPACY as its example, since that deal went about as well as possible - the O's got an iconic stadium, built before costs got out of hand ($110 million sounds like a steal in 2013) and I'm sure it brings in some tourism dollars to Baltimore. Maybe that was their point, though, that even the best-case scenario is still a bad deal.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I agree on Ravens stadium, but would Baltimore prefer not to host sports teams? We all know the answer to that is "no, it gives us civic pride" I guess the debate is should more of the costs be privately funded and is that practical from a financial standpoint.

Yeah, absolutely. I want the Orioles and Ravens in Baltimore, which means I was in favor of paying for the stadiums if the alternative was no team. It just seems like a bad system, where we all subsidize the richest guy in town.

[atomic]

But those are 81 great days!

I agree, public funded stadium are usually poor deals. But having a major franchise in your town is not always a poor idea. Especially if you are keeping it from leaving town. It makes a difference between having a second and fourth class city.

Totally disagree on this. I have travelled to Columbus and Cinncinati multiple times on business and Columbus wins over Cinncinati for me in a landslide. Not even close.

[BradyBunch]

my $.02 here.

Those saying Camden Yards is a bad deal are missing the bigger picture.

1) Colts bolted after stadium deals in the past fell apart. Leaving Baltimore with no NFL team.

2) Memorial Stadium while it had it's history was costing more money to upkeep the stadium then what it was worth.

3) O's have a 30 year lease. 10 years are still left and will be resigned. Once those bonds are paid off, it's 100% profit for the MSA.

4) There was major redevelopment of Federal Hill. Without Camden Yards, no way Federal Hill has that kind of redevelopment.

5) The Hotel and Condo development. That means Hotel taxes which are collected by the City.

6) Under Armor. Do you think if there was no franchise in Baltimore (NFL or MLB) Under Armor would be HQed there? Absolutely not. They could have gone to College Park.

7) While this goes with reason #1, it's important to understand. Maryland collects taxes from players. Every player pays $15,072 plus another 5.75% for every dollar over $300,000. That means Flacco pays $1.72 million a year to Maryland. Without those players that money is gone. With Millionaires leaving Maryland in droves.. it's a solid tax base that will never leave.

8) If you add up all the fees and tax collected, Camden Yards paid for itself already. It's just how those taxes were collect that makes the difference. Since MSA collects the money to pay the bonds, bonds aren't fully paid off. But if all the taxes collect due to Camden Yards were tallied, Maryland and Baltimore are in the black.