For What it's worth.....

[Harry Carry]

If Payton is involved there probably is a 4th player I don't know if that is the case.

[SilentJames]

If the pen is run Perlozzo-style, where it's a mortal sin to for anyone to pitch more than an inning and a third. If I were the O's and they had five straight starts with somebody getting bombed I'd have some combination of Sarfate, Albers, Liz, Penn, etc pitching long relief and going 4-5 innings at a stretch.

This idea that 12 pitchers is a necessity is an invention. You think teams in the 70s and 80s never had three or four bad starts in a row? They made it through with 4- and 5-man pens. They just used their pitchers for more than a few batters.

I think 50 games/100 innings is a much better, healthier way to use a pitcher than 78 games/65 innings.

This is very true, but that type of pen - well, I don't think it exists any more.

The idea of ANOTHER vet pitcher is rather disconcerting. Unless this means that Trax genuinely ISN'T guaranteed anything. Trax out of the pen?

[JTrea81]

This is very true, but that type of pen - well, I don't think it exists any more.

The idea of ANOTHER vet pitcher is rather disconcerting. Unless this means that Trax genuinely ISN'T guaranteed anything. Trax out of the pen?

It could mean Penn, Olson or Burres are headed elsewhere in another trade, and with Patton on the shelf, that would mean they would need another guy for the rotation. Olson still has been very wild and we have yet to see what Penn will do. Burres is probably ticketed for that swingman role again if he's not traded.

[osfan83]

If the pen is run Perlozzo-style, where it's a mortal sin to for anyone to pitch more than an inning and a third. If I were the O's and they had five straight starts with somebody getting bombed I'd have some combination of Sarfate, Albers, Liz, Penn, etc pitching long relief and going 4-5 innings at a stretch.

This idea that 12 pitchers is a necessity is an invention. You think teams in the 70s and 80s never had three or four bad starts in a row? They made it through with 4- and 5-man pens. They just used their pitchers for more than a few batters.

I think 50 games/100 innings is a much better, healthier way to use a pitcher than 78 games/65 innings.

Thank you. That's what drove me crazy last year. If you need to bring a guy in during the 3rd, let him pitch into the 8th or 9th if he is going well. Last year a releiver would cruise thru the 4th and 5th, then get lifted. The next guy would pitch the 6th, then another for the 7th, and yet another for the 8th and 9th. 5 guys in the penn would pitch, when you could have had 1 or 2.

Put two long men in the pen this year, and let them pitch 4 or 5, if we are getting blown out early, saving the pen for the next night.

[brvn52]

If Payton is involved there probably is a 4th player I don't know if that is the case.

If the Cubs offer Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal, and Murton/EPat (preferably EPat) for Roberts and Payton, I take that deal assuming that the Indians don't top that offer. However, I don't think you have a deal if it's just Gallagher, Cedeno, and Veal. There needs to be a 4th involved IMO.

[davearm]

And bigbird has already said this. They just needed to agree on the 4th player...

Perhaps there is no fourth player, and as indicated, the offer is final.

Or the "fourth player" is the Cubs take back Payton.

[brvn52]

Thank you. That's what drove me crazy last year. If you need to bring a guy in during the 3rd, let him pitch into the 8th or 9th if he is going well. Last year a releiver would cruise thru the 4th and 5th, then get lifted. The next guy would pitch the 6th, then another for the 7th, and yet another for the 8th and 9th. 5 guys in the penn would pitch, when you could have had 1 or 2.

Put two long men in the pen this year, and let them pitch 4 or 5, if we are getting blown out early, saving the pen for the next night.

And that is exactly why Brian Burres should be in the pen come opening day.

[Fan4Life]

Thank you. That's what drove me crazy last year. If you need to bring a guy in during the 3rd, let him pitch into the 8th or 9th if he is going well. Last year a releiver would cruise thru the 4th and 5th, then get lifted. The next guy would pitch the 6th, then another for the 7th, and yet another for the 8th and 9th. 5 guys in the penn would pitch, when you could have had 1 or 2.

Put two long men in the pen this year, and let them pitch 4 or 5, if we are getting blown out early, saving the pen for the next night.

To add insult to unjury... often times he'd pull the starter or a reliever who is cruising along only to have the replacement blow up.

[brvn52]

Perhaps there is no fourth player, and as indicated, the offer is final.

Or the "fourth player" is the Cubs take back Payton.

That may be. Personally, I don't think I do Roberts and Payton for Gallagher, Cedeno, and Veal, but the FO may. Who knows. However, hypothetically speaking, if that is the Cubs final offer, then you have to compare to what the Indians offer. What would it take from the Indians to top a Cubs offer of Gallagher, Cedeno, and Veal. And remember the Cubs are taking Payton back.

[SilentJames]

It could mean Penn, Olson or Burres are headed elsewhere in another trade, and with Patton on the shelf, that would mean they would need another guy for the rotation. Olson still has been very wild and we have yet to see what Penn will do. Burres is probably ticketed for that swingman role again if he's not traded.

I think Burres stays in the pen. I think he is valuable and we need him. Olson isn't going anywhere.

I have said for awhile that Penn could be viable trade bait. it could be one of those ones that comes back and bite us later - but in the right deal I would move him.

[amateurfan]

Perhaps there is no fourth player, and as indicated, the offer is final.

Or the "fourth player" is the Cubs take back Payton.

Wouldn't that make five?

[mapierce]

I'd have to think the Indians could easily top the offer from the Cubs (unless they include Ceda) if they wanted too. I guess if they want to is what we will see. Do they intend to move Sizemore down in the lineup? I'm not too familiar with the Tribe's farm system. Do they have any good positional prospects? I'm just glad this saga might finally be over...

[DrungoHazewood]

This is very true, but that type of pen - well, I don't think it exists any more.

The idea of ANOTHER vet pitcher is rather disconcerting. Unless this means that Trax genuinely ISN'T guaranteed anything. Trax out of the pen?

It may not exist, but it should. "Everybody else is doing it" is a poor excuse for running through six relievers a game and employing multiple crappy veteran starters.

[DrungoHazewood]

And that is exactly why Brian Burres should be in the pen come opening day.

If not Burres than several other guys from the Liz, Penn, Albers, Sarfate, Leicester pool of potential swingmen.

[PoorMike]

If the pen is run Perlozzo-style, where it's a mortal sin to for anyone to pitch more than an inning and a third. If I were the O's and they had five straight starts with somebody getting bombed I'd have some combination of Sarfate, Albers, Liz, Penn, etc pitching long relief and going 4-5 innings at a stretch.

This idea that 12 pitchers is a necessity is an invention. You think teams in the 70s and 80s never had three or four bad starts in a row? They made it through with 4- and 5-man pens. They just used their pitchers for more than a few batters.

I think 50 games/100 innings is a much better, healthier way to use a pitcher than 78 games/65 innings.

I agree...but since our guys aren't that good, they are asked to come in, throwing max effort to a few batters against whom they have decent splits against. Even the very BEST guys in or bullpen are considered specialists/LOOGYs. We don't have a guy that we can just say, "hey, the 7th and possibly the 8th are yours, no matter who is coming up to bat." They are handled that way because of who they are, not the other way around.