Caleb Joseph ranked 4th best catcher in MLB

[Tony-OH]

http://baseball-players.pointafter.com/stories/8852/ranking-mlb-catchers-worst-best-2015?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social.paid&utm_campaign=ao.sp.fb.dt.8852#26-Caleb-Joseph-Baltimore-Orioles

I think it's interesting that Caleb Joseph was ranked the 4th best catcher in MLB by this system yet the Orioles will pay Matt Wieters about $15 million more to be the every day catcher.

I'm not trying to beat a deadhorse here, but this is why you don't offer Wieters a QO unless you are 100% positive he's not going to accept the offer. As it stands now, I expect Wieters to do a decent amount of DHing next year with Jospech catching at least three times a week. At least I hope so.

[Frobby]

That ranking seems a bit, er, aggressive. Then again, they have Francsico Cervelli at no. 2.

[Es4M11]

http://baseball-players.pointafter.com/stories/8852/ranking-mlb-catchers-worst-best-2015?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social.paid&utm_campaign=ao.sp.fb.dt.8852#26-Caleb-Joseph-Baltimore-Orioles

I think it's interesting that Caleb Joseph was ranked the 4th best catcher in MLB by this system yet the Orioles will pay Matt Wieters about $15 million more to be the every day catcher.

I'm not trying to beat a deadhorse here, but this is why you don't offer Wieters a QO unless you are 100% positive he's not going to accept the offer. As it stands now, I expect Wieters to do a decent amount of DHing next year with Jospech catching at least three times a week. At least I hope so.

Just the latest in a series of head scratching moves.

[Es4M11]

That ranking seems a bit, er, aggressive. Then again, they have Francsico Cervelli at no. 2.

That's fair. My eyeballs tell me Joseph has more value to the team. Regardless of what this or any other rankings say, giving Wieters a QO was more of a gamble than it was worth because of Joseph.

[Can_of_corn]

That ranking seems a bit, er, aggressive. Then again, they have Francsico Cervelli at no. 2.

Their methodology seems odd

5 X WAR

5 X dWAR

10 X OPS

.1 X Calls (Pitch framing metric)

[Aristotelian]

I'm not trying to beat a deadhorse here, but this is why you don't offer Wieters a QO unless you are 100% positive he's not going to accept the offer. As it stands now, I expect Wieters to do a decent amount of DHing next year with Jospech catching at least three times a week. At least I hope so.

That's pretty much the definition of a dead horse as this was discussed at length in numerous threads. I am very high on CJ and wanted him as our #1 C this year. I still supported the QO, along with the vast majority of the board, because most signs pointed toward him rejecting the QO and the organization needs young players and draft picks are a way to get them. I am still shocked that Wieters took it, and I think he is a fool for doing so.

[MrOrange82]

That ranking seems a bit, er, aggressive. Then again, they have Francsico Cervelli at no. 2.

According to fangraphs, Cervelli was 2nd in baseball (among catchers with 300 PA) in WAR, behind only Buster Posey. Caleb was 14th, a hair behind Blake Swihart.

[Rene88]

Good to see. Exactly why you don't offer MW a QO as I said.

I do understand the calculated gamble but if you lose, like they did....

I like Joseph a lot. He is a winner.

A close friend of mine recently told me about a private conversation he had with Dempsey about MW and his game calling, specifically how it effected some pitchers. It was quite eye-opening.

[MrOrange82]

That's pretty much the definition of a dead horse as this was discussed at length in numerous threads. I am very high on CJ and wanted him as our #1 C this year. I still supported the QO, along with the vast majority of the board, because most signs pointed toward him rejecting the QO and the organization needs young players and draft picks are a way to get them. I am still shocked that Wieters took it, and I think he is a fool for doing so.

Though the dead horse smell is overpowering...what signs? And why shocked? Wieters has barely cracked 100 games played over the last two years combined. He was pretty good when he came back, but not good enough to make the rest of baseball forget that he turns 30 next May, that he's had major surgery on his throwing arm, and that his bat's never been good enough to count on a (high dollar) worthwhile transition to 1B/DH. If anyone is/was in need of a "make good" bridge contract, it is/was Matt Wieters. And the O's gave it to him.

Could Wieters have landed a multi-year deal on the open market? Sure, probably. But I'd wager that it would've been a lot less than he'd have gotten without the injury, even if his production had stayed about the same in the interim. The fact that he accepted the QO makes perfect sense, and it shouldn't have been surprising to anyone.

[Tony-OH]

Good to see. Exactly why you don't offer MW a QO as I said.

I do understand the calculated gamble but if you lose, like they did....

I like Joseph a lot. He is a winner.

A close friend of mine recently told me about a private conversation he had with Dempsey about MW and his game calling, specifically how it effected some pitchers. It was quite eye-opening.

Very few "in the know professionals" think Wieters is a good game caller. Personally, I've never been a fan of his game calling. He's a good guy and leader in the clubhouse, but his defensive "prowess" has been overrated by some for years, even before the injury sapped the arm.

[Tony-OH]

Though the dead horse smell is overpowering...what signs? And why shocked? Wieters has barely cracked 100 games played over the last two years combined. He was pretty good when he came back, but not good enough to make the rest of baseball forget that he turns 30 next May, that he's had major surgery on his throwing arm, and that his bat's never been good enough to count on a (high dollar) worthwhile transition to 1B/DH. If anyone is/was in need of a "make good" bridge contract, it is/was Matt Wieters. And the O's gave it to him.

Could Wieters have landed a multi-year deal on the open market? Sure, probably. But I'd wager that it would've been a lot less than he'd have gotten without the injury, even if his production had stayed about the same in the interim. The fact that he accepted the QO makes perfect sense, and it shouldn't have been surprising to anyone.

Absolutely, why anyone thinks a team is going to give a 30-year old Wieters a long term huge deal is beyond me. The extra year gives Wieters a chance to regain his value (which I don't think he will) and the fact that he gets paid a ridiculous $16 million to do it is all the better for Boros and Wieters. It was a terrible decision from the get go when you look at all the factors. It was not a good gamble.

[baltfan]

This will also keep Joseph's arbitration number down. Not as good as Weiters going elsewhere, but have to have some bright side

[MrOrange82]

Absolutely, why anyone thinks a team is going to give a 30-year old Wieters a long term huge deal is beyond me. The extra year gives Wieters a chance to regain his value (which I don't think he will) and the fact that he gets paid a ridiculous $16 million to do it is all the better for Boros and Wieters. It was a terrible decision from the get go when you look at all the factors. It was not a good gamble.

The fact that his 2016 salary will be within about $500,000 of Adam Jones' is basically mind-blowing.

[CheeryO]

That's pretty much the definition of a dead horse as this was discussed at length in numerous threads. I am very high on CJ and wanted him as our #1 C this year. I still supported the QO, along with the vast majority of the board, because most signs pointed toward him rejecting the QO and the organization needs young players and draft picks are a way to get them. I am still shocked that Wieters took it, and I think he is a fool for doing so.

Why wouldn't Wieters take the QO? He only caught 55 games last year and only hit 8 home runs. Since 2014 he only appeared in 101 games. If his value is as a catcher, he hasn't proved since his injury that he is anything other than a part-time catcher. Why would any team offer a large multi-year contract to Wieters after last two seasons? It makes total sense for him to take the QO for him to rebuild his value.

As far as why the O's offered it to him, that's another issue. But if the O's won't/can't re-sign Davis, then I bet Wieters sees more time at first, especially against right handed pitching.

[Aristotelian]

Though the dead horse smell is overpowering...what signs? And why shocked? Wieters has barely cracked 100 games played over the last two years combined. He was pretty good when he came back, but not good enough to make the rest of baseball forget that he turns 30 next May, that he's had major surgery on his throwing arm, and that his bat's never been good enough to count on a (high dollar) worthwhile transition to 1B/DH. If anyone is/was in need of a "make good" bridge contract, it is/was Matt Wieters. And the O's gave it to him.

Could Wieters have landed a multi-year deal on the open market? Sure, probably. But I'd wager that it would've been a lot less than he'd have gotten without the injury, even if his production had stayed about the same in the interim. The fact that he accepted the QO makes perfect sense, and it shouldn't have been surprising to anyone.

He would have been the top C on the market even coming off an unspectacular year. At Age 30, I believe this was his best opportunity at a multiyear contract, even if it ends up in the $40M range instead of the $80M range. Some of the reasons you are skeptical he could have gotten a big contract are exactly why he should have accepted modest contract with as much guaranteed money as he can get at Age 30 instead of taking his chances at Age 31. Nobody had ever taken a QO up until Rasmus and Wieters, and Wieters did not seem like the most likely candidate. Perhaps you and Tony-OH were on record predicting he would accept, but if so you were in the extreme minority. Most of this second guessing is coming after the fact.