The rise and fall of Rafael Palmeiro

[24fps]

He's no Eagle Scout, sure. But I don't know that it's helpful to assume everyone was cheating full-bore from day one, assuming not just guilt but worst-case guilt.

What's the threshold then? How much cheating is OK and at what point does it begin to be not OK?

[DrungoHazewood]

What's the threshold then? How much cheating is OK and at what point does it begin to be not OK?

I don't know. Nobody besides the individual players themselves even know how much went on. It's hard to draw bright lines separating levels, and the lines that are drawn are arbitrary and capricious. Everyone seems to be assumed guilty and only forgiven when they admit their guilt, which really hurts those who were innocent all along.

The baseline appears to be assumption that everyone who fits a stereotype is guilty. The clean or mostly clean players would probably be better off lying and begging for forgiveness for sins they never committed.

[Orioles Jim]

I guess you didn't read the entire article. Raffy lost $53 million on a bad real estate deal and had to file for bankruptcy. I highly doubt he has enough money to pay Tejada to take the fall for him.

I had not, I saw this thread when I first got into the office and then commented and made note of it to read the article (which sounds very interesting) at lunch.

I'll withhold further comment until I read the article.

[DrungoHazewood]

The people who run the hall are morons

I hesitate to call any group of people I don't know morons, but they have made a number of decisions I don't understand over the years. You should read Bill James' The Politics of Glory . It's going on 20 years old, but it probably the best writing on the inner workings of the Hall.

[24fps]

I don't know. Nobody besides the individual players themselves even know how much went on. It's hard to draw bright lines separating levels, and the lines that are drawn are arbitrary and capricious. Everyone seems to be assumed guilty and only forgiven when they admit their guilt, which really hurts those who were innocent all along.

The baseline appears to be assumption that everyone who fits a stereotype is guilty. The clean or mostly clean players would probably be better off lying and begging for forgiveness for sins they never committed.

I don't by the notion that there is an assumption that everyone who fits a stereotype is presumed guilty. However I'm perfectly happy to let whatever injustice there might be in this regard fester until the players themselves - past and present - find it intolerable enough to set the record straight. You're right, nobody besides the players themselves know what actually went on. I think it's reasonable to assume there plenty of room left for the candor that until now seems to be in short supply.

I'm not holding my breath.

[El Gordo]

I don't know. Nobody besides the individual players themselves even know how much went on. It's hard to draw bright lines separating levels, and the lines that are drawn are arbitrary and capricious. Everyone seems to be assumed guilty and only forgiven when they admit their guilt, which really hurts those who were innocent all along.

The baseline appears to be assumption that everyone who fits a stereotype is guilty. The clean or mostly clean players would probably be better off lying and begging for forgiveness for sins they never committed.

I spoke to two people who were close to McGwire. One was La Russa's cousin, who said Tony told him Mark never did anything other than Andro and Creotine, both legal at the time. He said McGwire confessed to using because it was the only way to get back in the game.

The other person was an actress I worked with who was McGwires girlfriend during the HR chase. She said essentially the same thing. Who knows?

[srock]

Hmm, I read it and it was very well written article, but I have a little different take. The problem with guys like Palmeiro is that they just won't take responsibility for their actions. Had he just come out and admitted taking the steroids, I would have had a lot more respect for him. He seems like he's become a very bitter man, and part of that is he hasn't fully taken responsibility for his actions. He still is claiming the "tainted B-12 shot," but what caused his power to surge suddenly a year from Free Agency at the age of 28?

Raffy was a great natural hitter, but I think he got greedy and like many of the other players out there, he knew he needed to put big power numbers to get the big contract. It's too much of coincidence that his power surge happened at the same time he was coming up for free agency and after coming off a down season for him.

From age 21-27 over 3649 PAs, Palmeiro hit a home run every 38.4 plate appearances. From 28-38 years old he homered once every 16.9 PAs over 7324 while making $76,306,496. He basically homered over twice as much as he ever did and we're supposed to believe that once he was caught it was a tainted B-12 shot?

Sorry, I don't feel for the guy one bit. I understand why players were talking steroids and although I would never vote one into the Hall of Fame(not that I have a vote), I'm not going to judge them all with the same brush. What I would like is to see some damn personal responsibility. Just say, "I did it". I don't care if you are sorry or not, just take personal responsibility for doing something they knew was wrong.

Palmeiro is still using the B-12 excuse and it's embarrassing regardless or what can be proven or not in a court of law.

I don't even need Palmeiro to admit using steroids directly. Just apologize and admit it was stupid to inject B-12 you got from someone not your doctor.

Did Raffy do anything worse then McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, etc? Probably not.

He is a victim of terrible timing. His positive test came at the worst possible moment in history. Baseball needed a fall guy and he was unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. From a PR point of view, his best move was to fall on his sword then move forward.

He didn't so nobody (including him) has moved forward.

[El Gordo]

I don't even need Palmeiro to admit using steroids directly. Just apologize and admit it was stupid to inject B-12 you got from someone not your doctor.

Did Raffy do anything worse then McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, etc? Probably not.

He is a victim of terrible timing. His positive test came at the worst possible moment in history. Baseball needed a fall guy and he was unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. From a PR point of view, his best move was to fall on his sword then move forward.

He didn't so nobody (including him) has moved forward.

That was not so uncommon at the time. People weren't as knowledgeable about the issues of accidental contamination then. I know that Winstrol laced B-12 was not unusual in the DR. Their drugs were poorly regulated and you could get clean B-12 or contaminated B-12 with out knowing the difference.

[DrungoHazewood]

I spoke to two people who were close to McGwire. One was La Russa's cousin, who said Tony told him Mark never did anything other than Andro and Creotine, both legal at the time. He said McGwire confessed to using because it was the only way to get back in the game.

The other person was an actress I worked with who was McGwires girlfriend during the HR chase. She said essentially the same thing. Who knows?

Interesting. No way of really knowing, but that's plausible.

[El Gordo]

Interesting. No way of really knowing, but that's plausible.

Also said the reason he took the fifth at hearings was that if he answered one he would have to answer all of them and he didn't want to be put in the position of naming names.

[atomic]

I spoke to two people who were close to McGwire. One was La Russa's cousin, who said Tony told him Mark never did anything other than Andro and Creotine, both legal at the time. He said McGwire confessed to using because it was the only way to get back in the game.

The other person was an actress I worked with who was McGwires girlfriend during the HR chase. She said essentially the same thing. Who knows?

Mark McGwire was jacked on steroids. First time I saw him come up I knew he was on steroids. He would hit balls that should have been routine fly balls that would carry way past the outfield wall. I am sure he took everything he could get his hands on as much as his body could take.

[atomic]

Did you see that he invested 53 million of his own money into a failed real estate venture?

Yeah and Schilling lost 90 million or so on a Video Game Company.

I don't understand how you go bankrupt with 53 million. Put it in 50 different stocks in the SP 500 that give you an average of 3 percent dividend. That would give you 1.6 million the first year and should go up every year. I guess they think they are smarter than everyone else.

[DrungoHazewood]

Mark McGwire was jacked on steroids. First time I saw him come up I knew he was on steroids. He would hit balls that should have been routine fly balls that would carry way past the outfield wall. I am sure he took everything he could get his hands on as much as his body could take.

The crux of the problem is that "suspected based on circumstantial evidence" and "knew" aren't the same thing.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah and Schilling lost 90 million or so on a Video Game Company.

I don't understand how you go bankrupt with 53 million. Put it in 50 different stocks in the SP 500 that give you an average of 3 percent dividend. That would give you 1.6 million the first year and should go up every year. I guess they think they are smarter than everyone else.

Everyone's goal isn't to make safe investments in their future. Many successful businesses started off with frankly absurd risks taken with the grocery money.

[atomic]

I think that as well to an extent. I think guys like Pete Rose should be in as well with that logic. The Steroid Era ruined baseball for a lot of people, and so did Pete by betting on baseball and the team he managed.

I think Pete should be in the Hall of Fame but still banned from baseball. What he did was after his playing career. He isn't going in as a manager.