Cafardo: Showalter losing the clubhouse

[Townie72]

Sounds like an opportunity to purge some malcontents among the players.

Everyone who Showalter "lost" needs to raise their hands so they can be sent somewhere else to enjoy the coaching of others.

Based on the past season, there's none of the veterans I'd keep instead of Buck.

These guys just aren't that good that they can be complaining about anyone else performance at their job.

[Il BuonO]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Our AAA pitchers were horrible most of the year.    The alternatives might have done better, but it certainly wasn't obvious.   Here are the 2017 major league ERA's of Norfolk's top starters:

Aquino 7.43

Ynoa 4.15

Wilson 7.04

Wright 5.76

Two guys on your list had lower ERAs than Jimenez, albeit at different levels. Wright doesn’t inspire much confidence, but Jimenez inspires none. Ynoa had pitched well in the ML action he saw and was a much better candidate than Jimenez.

[Il BuonO]

4 hours ago, mdbdotcom said:

A thought and a question.

1) The guys Buck has counted on for years to police the clubhouse - Jones, Davis, Hardy, Wieters, Tillman - were either gone or largely irrelevant this season. Players who can't get their own jobs done cannot lead. 

2) Cafardo has had a good relationship with Duquette since DD ran the Red Sox. Could it be that DD was the source of these rumors with tensions between he and Buck escalating?

The guys listed as clubhouse leaders were more likely the reason Buck May have lost confidence amongst the players. Jones not as much as some others but still. Trumbo and Davis not being moved down until late in the season was dumb. I’d be surprised if the loyalty to vets when there are alternatives didn’t frustrate some guys.

[Morgan423]

2 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

Jimenez had earned  nothing but still managed to retain his rotation spot for most of the season.  

Pretty sure that someone should edit the wikipedia entry for the sunk cost fallacy so that it has a photo of Ubaldo Jimenez.  He's literally the subject for the real life example. 

[MemorialStadKid]

It is entirely within the realm of possibility that Buck might have lost some prestige after the bad decision last year, but I doubt that the players "quit" on him in September. 

However, it is also possible that the guys realized their SP rotation was so incredibly awful that they didn't press themselves when it mattered most. If anything, there would be an issue with DD for not getting decent pitching last offseason and not so much anger directed at Buck. The sad thing is that we have no idea other than rumor and innuendo about Buck and DD's supposed tension but it wouldn't surprise me at all to know that there's bad feelings on the team because they all knew going in that they didn't have the SP needed to truly compete in 2017. 

Human nature is to sometimes take disappointment out on the people closest to you and since the players deal with Buck, there could have been some misplaced anger directed toward Buck which then feeds the rumor mill. Of course the guys are pissed because they should have been able to get a WC or better if DD had brought in at least 1 decent SP at some point during the year. 

Maybe we should have traded Britton for some prospects (although I heard that no one was offered A+ level talent in return)? 

At this point, does it matter? I truly believe that the team's attitude will improve once the front office does their job during the offseason. 

 

MSK 

 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Il BuonO said:

Two guys on your list had lower ERAs than Jimenez, albeit at different levels. Wright doesn’t inspire much confidence, but Jimenez inspires none. Ynoa had pitched well in the ML action he saw and was a much better candidate than Jimenez.

Ynoa had a complicated season:

1.   Began at Norfolk and pitched poorly in April: 6.65 ERA.

2.   Got called up on the shuttle in early May and had a brilliant relief appearance for the O's, 0 R in 6 IP.

3.   Got hurt and spent 20 days on the shelf.  

4.   Pitched next 4 games at Norfolk to a 7.31 ERA.

5.   Called up and made 3 relief appearances in a week, to an 8.10 ERA.

6.   Pitched to a 6.12 ERA his next six games at Norfolk, through the end of July.

7.   Had an excellent August, 2.72 ERA in six games.

Realistically, he really didn't merit consideration for the big league rotation until he pitched well in August.      Would I have like to see him make 5-6 starts at the end of the year, instead of the 4 he made (plus 1 relief appearance)?    Sure.   But it's not like he was an obvious rotation candidate earlier in the year.     

[Can_of_corn]

1 hour ago, Townie72 said:

Sounds like an opportunity to purge some malcontents among the players.

Everyone who Showalter "lost" needs to raise their hands so they can be sent somewhere else to enjoy the coaching of others.

Based on the past season, there's none of the veterans I'd keep instead of Buck.

These guys just aren't that good that they can be complaining about anyone else performance at their job.

 

1 hour ago, Townie72 said:

Sounds like an opportunity to purge some malcontents among the players.

Everyone who Showalter "lost" needs to raise their hands so they can be sent somewhere else to enjoy the coaching of others.

Based on the past season, there's none of the veterans I'd keep instead of Buck.

These guys just aren't that good that they can be complaining about anyone else performance at their job.

What if is O'Day who has trade protection? What if it is Davis and his immovable contract? What it is Bundy or Schoop both of which are valuable assets that are under control for longer than Buck is?

[wildcard]

58 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Ynoa had a complicated season:

1.   Began at Norfolk and pitched poorly in April: 6.65 ERA.

2.   Got called up on the shuttle in early May and had a brilliant relief appearance for the O's, 0 R in 6 IP.

3.   Got hurt and spent 20 days on the shelf.  

4.   Pitched next 4 games at Norfolk to a 7.31 ERA.

5.   Called up and made 3 relief appearances in a week, to an 8.10 ERA.

6.   Pitched to a 6.12 ERA his next six games at Norfolk, through the end of July.

7.   Had an excellent August, 2.72 ERA in six games.

Realistically, he really didn't merit consideration for the big league rotation until he pitched well in August.      Would I have like to see him make 5-6 starts at the end of the year, instead of the 2 he made (plus 2 relief appearances)?    Sure.   But it's not like he was an obvious rotation candidate earlier in the year.     

Ynoa started 4 games for the O's in September.   

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=ynoaga01&t=p&year=2017

[Frobby]

28 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Ynoa started 4 games for the O's in September.   

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=ynoaga01&t=p&year=2017

You're right, I misread his stat line. I've gone back and corrected it, since it only reinforces the point I made.

[spiritof66]

[Joke stolen from an Albert Brooks movie]

Orioles owner: What is it, Brady? I'm very busy right now. I'll start thinking about what we should do with the ballclub after the World Series. The Series hasn't even started yet, has it?

Brady: This is important.  There are reports that Buck has lost the clubhouse. We really should look into this right away.

Orioles owner: Oh, boy. That's terrible. I've been in the clubhouse. Once, I think. It's a really big room with all kinds of expensive stuff in it. How could Showalter lose the whole thing? If he has lost the clubhouse somehow, tell him he'd better find it fast, or the cost of replacing it will be coming out of his salary. I can't afford to buy a new clubhouse every few years just because the manager loses the damn thing.

Brady: Yes, Mr. Angelos. Right away.

Orioles owner:  By the way, you haven't discussed any of this with Don -- what's his name? -- Duquette, have you?

Brady: Of course not.

Orioles owner:  Good. Well, you and I will have to talk one of these days about improving the ball club for next season. We'll probably need to add some starting pitchers. There's no big hurry, though. We should score plenty of runs with Davis, Machado and Trumbone all back for another year. I think we're going to win it all in 2018!

 

[OFFNY]

15 hours ago, ArtVanDelay said:

 

That moment planted a seed of doubt in my mind about him.  I didn’t want him fired, but I also didn’t think quite as highly of him anymore.  Maybe the players felt the same way.  It could’ve snowballed into something bigger.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, OFFNY said:

o

Explain how a seed of doubt about a Wildcard playoff game in October of 2016 "snowballed" if they started the next season (2017) at 22-10?

 

And how did a team with an absolute mess of a starting rotation and an extremely overworked bullpen manage to stay in contention through early September if they were still pouting and dragging their feet about a bad decision made by their manager from a playoff game from the previous October? 

o

 

 

5 hours ago, ArtVanDelay said:

 

Pouting and dragging their feet?   They’re professionals.  I think you’re over-dramatizing what losing the clubhouse is.  The American League was terrible this year.  In a normal year, we wouldn’t have been in contention so long. 

I’m not even arguing that Buck did lose the clubhouse.  I have no idea.  I’m just giving reasons why it’s possible.  

 

o

 

Fine.

Disregard "pouting and dragging their feet." 

We'll use your words, and your assertion.

What are you implying when you say that the team "May have turned on Showalter" after the Wildcard game loss last October, and how exactly could a team that tuned on their manager could have started the next season at 22-10? 

 

And if they are professionals, as you also assert, why would said professionals turn on their manager because of a bad decision that he made in a single-game elimination playoff? Pouting and dragging their feet is unprofessional and overly-dramatic, but turning on their manager because of a bad decision in a playoff game from the previous season is reasonable behavior from said professionals?

 

o

[Going Underground]

Maybe Francona will lose the clubhouse next year. Brought in Verlander in relief and he gave up a two run homer to the first batter. Boston now ahead.

[tntoriole]

6 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

The starting performance was so bad there's blame to go around.  Dan's record for obtaining starting pitching certainly is not good.  But there was zero reason, at least from a competitive baseball standpoint, to have stuck with Tillman and Jimenez for so long.  I love Tillman and he had earned a long leash this season IMO, but he still managed to stay in the rotation about a month too long.  Jimenez had earned  nothing but still managed to retain his rotation spot for most of the season.  I cannot imagine how frustrating it must have been to watch the starting pitching on this team this year.

Buck had very few options in regards to starting pitching.  He had no authority to DFA Jimenez.  That would have been Dan's call.   He sent him to the bullpen which marginally improved his coming back to the rotation in the last two years, but did not do so this time.  But it is really hard to have many good options when you retain a pitcher like Jiminez for 13 million reasons who essentially is taking up a slot without being able to provide anything.  Same way with Tillman- he was taking up a slot and gave us nothing in performance.  Buck threw Asher out there, threw Aquino out there, even gave Tyler Wilson another start....for no apparent reason or improvement.   So what does Dan do?  He adds Jeremy Hellickson...great...that really worked out well.   None of these decisions about who is on the roster, who gets DFAd, who gets traded were primarily Buck's calls, imho... they were Duquette's calls.     And if players got upset with the manager sticking too long with veterans not performing (which I seriously doubt was the case)...well, I can go through the roster and wonder if there were times when their performances also sucked during the year.   I doubt that this is anything except a Boston reporter blowing smoke up Buck's you know what.  

[Larry18]

23 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Maybe Francona will lose the clubhouse next year. Brought in Verlander in relief and he gave up a two run homer to the first batter. Boston now ahead.

Francona manages a different team

[baltfan]

Buck is not the problem. You can only do so much with so little.  DD dropped the ball with starters this past season.  He needs to take the fall