The 100 Most Significant Dates in Modern Orioles History

[Just Regular]

27 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Not sure I buy it.   Clemens had a .650 OPSA the third time through the order in 1989.    Do you really think Boston’s middle relievers were a better bet than that?

The game has changed a lot since 1989.    That year, starting pitchers had a .686 OPSA the first time through the lineup, .713 the second time, .710 the third time.   Not a ton of deterioration there, and starting pitchers stayed through the 3rd time through the order about 75% of the time.     In 2017, the OPSA went from .732 to .780 to .800.    That’s a lot more deterioration, and starting pitchers remained in for the third time through only 64% of the time.   To me, the change in the deterioration rate dictated the change in strategy, rather than there simply being a change in strategic insight.  

I'm sure they weren't - it was just a chance to mash up a happy historical event with today's game.

I think the Dodgers handling of Rich Hill in the World Series is more of a relevant example for the 2018 Orioles.  He's a good pitcher who was doing fine both games, but still was pulled.  It's a signal to me of what the best teams think are best practices to win the games they have to win.

There's some chance the 2018 Orioles are going to end up needing to play 1st half games like World Series games to stay on the edge of contention.  We're probably going to have a bunch of games started by bad pitchers.  I'm hoping we won''t compound our vulnerability by allowing too much third time exposure to AAAA guys.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, OrioleDog said:

There's some chance the 2018 Orioles are going to end up needing to play 1st half games like World Series games to stay on the edge of contention.  We're probably going to have a bunch of games started by bad pitchers.  I'm hoping we won''t compound our vulnerability by allowing too much third time exposure to AAAA guys.

I don’t think it’s realistic to manage regular season games as though they’re World Series games.   In the playoffs, teams are never playing for more than three consecutive days (and more often, it’s only two consecutive days), plus the end of the season is very near so players can “man up” for a short time.     In the regular season, it’s very unusual to have more than one off-day in a week, and teams are often playing 10-14 days in a row without a break.    You just can’t ask relievers to bear the same workload during the season as they do in the playoffs for any considerable period.   As it is, last year the Orioles’ starters threw the fewest innings of any AL team, third fewest in MLB (5.22 IP/game).

[OFFNY]

On 12/28/2017 at 7:04 AM, SteveA said:

It's 47 days until pitchers and catchers report to Sarasota.   Here is the 47th most significant date in modern Orioles history:

47) August 2, 1979

While most of the baseball world was transfixed by the news of Thurman Munson's tragic death, a major event in Oriole history occurred.

Jerry Hoffberger, president of National Brewing Company, had been a part owner of the Orioles since they returned to the majors, and majority owner since 1965.  The team was not profitable, and after several failed attempts by Baltimore businessmen to raise enough money to buy the team, Hoffberger sold the team to Washington lawyer Edward Bennett Williams for $12 million on August 2, 1979.   Williams was a part owner of the Washington Redskins.

The Orioles lease at Memorial Stadium was to expire after the 1980 season.   And it already had a provision that allowed for as many as 13 Oriole games to be played in Washington, and it soon became known that EBW had been looking into configuring RFK Stadium for baseball for several months before buying the team.   This led to immediate concern among Baltimore fans that he might move the team to Washington permanently at some point.   He said that was never his intention, but over the years he would complain about the difficulty for Washington area fans to get up to Memorial Stadium which was in the northern half of Baltimore and not close by any significant thoroughfares.  Most Baltimore fans believed that he wanted to eventually move the team to his native Washington, or perhaps to a central Maryland location that would attempt to capitalize on both markets.

Those concerns lasted throughout Bennett-Williams' tenure as Oriole owner, which would end with his death from cancer in 1988.  The loss of the Colts and the continued deterioration of Memorial Stadium, along with the specter of a Washington based owner, eventually led the to the state of Maryland deciding to build Oriole Park at Camden Yards.   EBW's tenure as owner was also marked by the Orioles last World Championship in 1983, and its first foray into free agent spending in 1985 with the signings of Lee Lacy, Fred Lynn, and Don Aase, as well as the unsuccessful attempt to recapture old glory by paying an enormous salary to woo Earl Weaver back from retirement.

While most Baltimore fans from that era never warmed to the out of town owner who they believe had designs on moving the team, ironically in the end his ownership turned out to be a pivotal factor in keeping the Orioles in Baltimore for a long time to come, as it was a major impetus for the building of the new downtown ballpark.

o

 

I remember it well, because even though I lived in Brewster (NY), I remember my mother coming home and telling me that the city of Baltimore had put up "The Birds are for Baltimore" billboard signs throughout the city in response to the fact that the Orioles' new owner went to Georgetown Law School, and had numerous very strong ties to Washington, DC ...... hence, there were very real fears that he would move the team to Washington.

By coincidence, that was also the very first season in which my mother had converted from being a lifelong Yankees fan to being an Orioles fan, promising me that they would win the World Series that very season (she was off by one game.)

 

o

[SteveA]

Its 46 days until pitchers and catchers report.  Here is the 46th most significant date in modern Orioles history.

#46 June 15, 1976

The Orioles' run of greatness that began over a decade earlier appeared to be coming to an end in 1976, as the Orioles were losing many veteran players to free agency, a newly won right of the players in their labor battles with the baseball owners.   The Orioles also were forced to trade some players as they approached free agency, knowing they could not afford to keep them, and also had key stars from the glory years starting to decline with age and reach the end of their careers.

On June 15, 1976, Oriole GM Hank Peters made a huge deal with the Yankees that, along with the continued flow of talent from the farm system, allowed the Orioles to extend their run of winning seasons and contending well into the 1980s, and eventually led to the 1983 World Championship.

The Orioles sent several pitchers to the Yankees:   26 year old Doyle Alexander, who had been in and out of the Oriole rotation and bullpenfor several years; veteran Ken Holtzman, whom the Orioles had just acquired along with Reggie Jackson just two and a half months earlier; veteran lefty reliever Grant Jackson, and minor league journeyman Jimmy Freeman   Also going to the Yankees was veteran Oriole part time catcher Elrod Hendricks.

In return the Orioles got several players who would be foundational pieces of an Oriole team that would win the most games of any team in baseball from 1977 through 1983.   Rick Dempsey, a 26 year old catcher who had been a backup in the majors for most of his career which started in 1969 with the Twins at age 19, would immediately become the Orioles starting catcher and would eventually play over 1200 games for the Orioles.   Known for his defense and occasional power, Dempsey would be the MVP of the 1983 World Series triumph over the Phillies and earn a spot on the cover of Sports Illustrated.    The Orioles also received 22 year old soft tossing lefty Scott McGregor, a control wizard who would win 138 games in an Oriole uniform, including a 20 win, 3.32 ERA season in 1980.  Crafty lefty reliever Tippy Martinez also came over.   He would pitch in relief in 499 games for the Orioles over the next decade in a variety of roles, earning over 100 saves but also having long relief stints as great as 7 innings.  They also got veteran lefty starter Rudy May, who would win 18 games for the 1977 Orioles and then would be traded to the Expos in a deal that would bring the Orioles Don Stanhouse, Joe Kerrigan, and Gary Roenicke, guys who could contribute mightily to Oriole success in the late 70s and early 80s.   Pitcher Dave Pagan also came over in the deal.

To this day, the June 15, 1976 trade has to rank as one of the top 3 deals in the history of the franchise, and helped the Orioles extend their consecutive winning season streak to 16 years thru 1984, and two American League Championship teams in 1979 and 1983, the last Orioles World Championship.

[Frobby]

I assume your top 3 Orioles trades are this one, the Frank Robinson trade and the Adam Jones/Chris Tillman/George Sherrill trade.    Underrated in my opinion is the J.J. Hardy trade.   And of course there’s the 17-player trade between the O’s and Yankees in December 1954.

[Moose Milligan]

I'd argue that this trade is more important than the one that netted us Jones/Tillman/Sherrill as the pieces in this trade helped get the franchise to a near WS win in '79 and then a title in '83.  

 

[BarclaySouthway]

Great trade and a good example of why it's stupid to think you shouldn't make in-division trades.

[OFFNY]

4 hours ago, SteveA said:

 

It's 46 days until pitchers and catchers report.  Here is the 46th most significant date in modern Orioles history.

47) June 15, 1976

The Orioles' run of greatness that began over a decade earlier appeared to be coming to an end in 1976, as the Orioles were losing many veteran players to free agency, a newly won right of the players in their labor battles with the baseball owners.   The Orioles also were forced to trade some players as they approached free agency, knowing they could not afford to keep them, and also had key stars from the glory years starting to decline with age and reach the end of their careers.

On June 15, 1976, Oriole GM Hank Peters made a huge deal with the Yankees that, along with the continued flow of talent from the farm system, allowed the Orioles to extend their run of winning seasons and contending well into the 1980s, and eventually led to the 1983 World Championship.

The Orioles sent several pitchers to the Yankees:   26 year old Doyle Alexander, who had been in and out of the Oriole rotation and bullpenfor several years; veteran Ken Holtzman, whom the Orioles had just acquired along with Reggie Jackson just two and a half months earlier; veteran lefty reliever Grant Jackson, and minor league journeyman Jimmy Freeman   Also going to the Yankees was veteran Oriole part time catcher Elrod Hendricks.

In return the Orioles got several players who would be foundational pieces of an Oriole team that would win the most games of any team in baseball from 1977 through 1983.   Rick Dempsey, a 26 year old catcher who had been a backup in the majors for most of his career which started in 1969 with the Twins at age 19, would immediately become the Orioles starting catcher and would eventually play over 1200 games for the Orioles.   Known for his defense and occasional power, Dempsey would be the MVP of the 1983 World Series triumph over the Phillies and earn a spot on the cover of Sports Illustrated.    The Orioles also received 22 year old soft tossing lefty Scott McGregor, a control wizard who would win 138 games in an Oriole uniform, including a 20 win, 3.32 ERA season in 1980.  Crafty lefty reliever Tippy Martinez also came over.   He would pitch in relief in 499 games for the Orioles over the next decade in a variety of roles, earning over 100 saves but also having long relief stints as great as 7 innings.  They also got veteran lefty starter Rudy May, who would win 18 games for the 1977 Orioles and then would be traded to the Expos in a deal that would bring the Orioles Don Stanhouse, Joe Kerrigan, and Gary Roenicke, guys who could contribute mightily to Oriole success in the late 70s and early 80s.   Pitcher Dave Pagan also came over in the deal.

To this day, the June 15, 1976 trade has to rank as one of the top 3 deals in the history of the franchise, and helped the Orioles extend their consecutive winning season streak to 16 years thru 1984, and two American League Championship teams in 1979 and 1983, the last Orioles World Championship.
 

o

 

This trade was a major contributing factor to the 1977 Orioles finishing with a record of 97-64 with one rainout.

Also, the 1976 Orioles were 24-31 before that trade was made. After the trade, they went went a torrid 62-37 over their next 99 games before they were mathematically eliminated from the division title in late September.

 

o

[Moose Milligan]

3 hours ago, BarclaySouthway said:

Great trade and a good example of why it's stupid to think you shouldn't make in-division trades.

I initially agreed with this but back then it was different.  Only two divisions, no wildcards, etc.  Given that there's a better chance to make the playoffs these days, I think teams are more apprehensive to trade inside the division.  

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

This trade was a major contributing factor to the 1977 Orioles finishing with a record of 97-64 with one rainout.

Also, the 1976 Orioles were 24-31 before that trade was made. After the trade, they went went 62-37 over their next 99 games before they were mathematically eliminated from the division title in late September.

 

o

It’s hard to say how much that trade helped the O’s in ‘76.   McGregor only pitched in 3 games at the end of the year, and while Rudy May did well, replacing Holtzman and Alexander was more or less a wash.    Dempsey probably was an upgrade to Elrod Hendricks as the backup catcher, and Tippy was good in the bullpen.

Probably a bigger factor was Reggie Jackson catching fire, after sitting out the first few weeks and then getting off to a slow start.   In the first 53 games of the season, Jackson had a .638 OPS (and only played in 32 of them);  afterwards, .917.

[POR]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

I assume your top 3 Orioles trades are this one, the Frank Robinson trade and the Adam Jones/Chris Tillman/George Sherrill trade.    Underrated in my opinion is the J.J. Hardy trade.   And of course there’s the 17-player trade between the O’s and Yankees in December 1954.

If you are putting trades in tiers, I think there is one more that belongs in the top tier.  It is incredible how one sided this trade was.  

December 4, 1974 Ken Singleton, and Mike Torrez for Dave McNally, Richie Coggins and minor league Bill Kirkpatrick.  

Obviously Singleton was a very good player for the next decade.  Torrez won 20 games in 1975 before being part of the ill fated Reggie Jackson trade.

Coggins played sporadically for several teams over a couple years.  He never came close to the duplicating the promise that he showed in 1973.

McNally was terrible  for the Expos for a few months after being so good for the previous seven years with the Orioles.He was likely damaged goods.  McNally last pitched in June of 1975 but took baseball to court with Andy Messersmith and became baseball's first free agent.

Kirkpatrick never reached the majors.

     

[OFFNY]

21 minutes ago, POR said:

 

If you are putting trades in tiers, I think there is one more that belongs in the top tier.  It is incredible how one sided this trade was.  

December 4, 1974 Ken Singleton, and Mike Torrez for Dave McNally, Richie Coggins and minor league Bill Kirkpatrick.  

Obviously Singleton was a very good player for the next decade.  Torrez won 20 games in 1975 before being part of the ill-fated Reggie Jackson trade.

Coggins played sporadically for several teams over a couple years.  He never came close to the duplicating the promise that he showed in 1973.

McNally was terrible  for the Expos for a few months after being so good for the previous seven years with the Orioles.He was likely damaged goods.  McNally last pitched in June of 1975 but took baseball to court with Andy Messersmith and became baseball's first free agent.

Kirkpatrick never reached the majors.

     

o

 

The Reggie Jackson trade was not ill-fated.

Baylor became a free agent the same season that Reggie Jackson did, and he signed a 6-year - $1.6 Million contract with the Angels (huge money back then.) The two main guys in the trade were Reggie Jackson and Don Baylor, and they both became free agents and subsequently left their respective teams (the Orioles and the Athletics) at the end of the 1976 season. In the end, we essentially replaced Don Baylor with Reggie Jackson for that one season. Baylor, like Jackson, had eyes on getting much more money than either Hank Peters or Charlie O. Finley would have been willing to dish out for 1977, so ultimately the Baylor-for-Jackson trade was essentially an even swap for players that had similar years in 1976.

Ironically, we improved drastically in 1977 in spite of losing Jackson, and took the Yankees down to the final weekend of the season before being eliminated. Trading Holtzman and company for Rudy May, Scott McGregor, Tippy Martinez, and Rick Dempsey wound up getting us more than we lost in the other part of the Jackson-for-Baylor trade.

 

o

[POR]

I am not going to get into an argument about something from 40 years ago, but the trade was ill fated.

You are acting like it was the Orioles just traded a rental player for a rental player like if the Orioles traded Machado for Harper today.  However, it was just a few months after the court ruling regarding the reserve clause and no one knew what it was going to do.  The Orioles at the time certainly did a poor job of anticipating the impact of the court ruling.   Jackson's holdout ruined the 76 season for the Orioles.  At the time of the trade, the Orioles could of signed Jackson to a long term contract for a fraction of what they ended up offering him after he was a free agent.   In addition, they renewed ten other players contracts with a 20% decrease salary possibly related to having to pay Reggie's 1976 salary.  If you read comments from Jim Palmer and Wayne Garland it clear that there was a morale and chemistry  issue.

“I do not resent Reggie getting all that he can,” said pitcher Wayne Garland. “But I do not think it is fair that 10 others should take a cut so the ball club can pay Jackson more money. The standards should be no different for some than they are for another.”

Through the first two weeks of the season, the Orioles and their much-vaunted slugger remained estranged. Jim Palmer, who made no bones about saying the trade for Jackson should never have been made in the first place, said Jackson’s failure to show up “has hurt the attitude of the club and our performance on the field” (the O’s were 6-8 at the time).

“Do you think it ever occurred to Jackson that there are 24 other guys over here counting on him?” Palmer speculated.

http://retrobaltimore.tumblr.com/post/142809936999/waiting-for-reggie

In addition, no one really knows what Baylor would have done or if the Orioles still would of made a similar trade with the Yankee if they never made the Jackson trade. In addition, Mike Torrez was good pitcher in that era.

  

 

[Frobby]

17 minutes ago, POR said:

I am not going to get into an argument about something from 40 years ago, but the trade was ill fated.

You are acting like it was the Orioles just traded a rental player for a rental player like if the Orioles traded Machado for Harper today.  However, it was just a few months after the court ruling regarding the reserve clause and no one knew what it was going to do.  The Orioles at the time certainly did a poor job of anticipating the impact of the court ruling.   Jackson's holdout ruined the 76 season for the Orioles.  At the time of the trade, the Orioles could of signed Jackson to a long term contract for a fraction of what they ended up offering him after he was a free agent.   In addition, they renewed ten other players contracts with a 20% decrease salary possibly related to having to pay Reggie's 1976 salary.  If you read comments from Jim Palmer and Wayne Garland it clear that there was a morale and chemistry  issue.

“I do not resent Reggie getting all that he can,” said pitcher Wayne Garland. “But I do not think it is fair that 10 others should take a cut so the ball club can pay Jackson more money. The standards should be no different for some than they are for another.”

Through the first two weeks of the season, the Orioles and their much-vaunted slugger remained estranged. Jim Palmer, who made no bones about saying the trade for Jackson should never have been made in the first place, said Jackson’s failure to show up “has hurt the attitude of the club and our performance on the field” (the O’s were 6-8 at the time).

“Do you think it ever occurred to Jackson that there are 24 other guys over here counting on him?” Palmer speculated.

http://retrobaltimore.tumblr.com/post/142809936999/waiting-for-reggie

In addition, no one really knows what Baylor would have done or if the Orioles still would of made a similar trade with the Yankee if they never made the Jackson trade. In addition, Mike Torrez was good pitcher in that era.

  

 

Good stuff.   I’d forgotten all that.

[OFFNY]

19 hours ago, OFFNY said:

o

 

The Reggie Jackson trade was not ill-fated.

Baylor became a free agent the same season that Reggie Jackson did, and he signed a 6-year - $1.6 Million contract with the Angels (huge money back then.) The two main guys in the trade were Reggie Jackson and Don Baylor, and they both became free agents and subsequently left their respective teams (the Orioles and the Athletics) at the end of the 1976 season. In the end, we essentially replaced Don Baylor with Reggie Jackson for that one season. Baylor, like Jackson, had eyes on getting much more money than either Hank Peters or Charlie O. Finley would have been willing to dish out for 1977, so ultimately the Baylor-for-Jackson trade was essentially an even swap for players that had similar years in 1976.

Ironically, we improved drastically in 1977 in spite of losing Jackson, and took the Yankees down to the final weekend of the season before being eliminated. Trading Holtzman and company for Rudy May, Scott McGregor, Tippy Martinez, and Rick Dempsey wound up getting us more than we lost in the other part of the Jackson-for-Baylor trade.

 

o

 

 

4 hours ago, POR said:

I am not going to get into an argument about something from 40 years ago, but the trade was ill fated.

You are acting like it was the Orioles just traded a rental player for a rental player like if the Orioles traded Machado for Harper today.  However, it was just a few months after the court ruling regarding the reserve clause and no one knew what it was going to do.  The Orioles at the time certainly did a poor job of anticipating the impact of the court ruling.   Jackson's holdout ruined the 76 season for the Orioles.  At the time of the trade, the Orioles could of signed Jackson to a long term contract for a fraction of what they ended up offering him after he was a free agent.   In addition, they renewed ten other players contracts with a 20% decrease salary possibly related to having to pay Reggie's 1976 salary.  If you read comments from Jim Palmer and Wayne Garland it clear that there was a morale and chemistry  issue.

“I do not resent Reggie getting all that he can,” said pitcher Wayne Garland. “But I do not think it is fair that 10 others should take a cut so the ball club can pay Jackson more money. The standards should be no different for some than they are for another.”

Through the first two weeks of the season, the Orioles and their much-vaunted slugger remained estranged. Jim Palmer, who made no bones about saying the trade for Jackson should never have been made in the first place, said Jackson’s failure to show up “has hurt the attitude of the club and our performance on the field” (the O’s were 6-8 at the time).

“Do you think it ever occurred to Jackson that there are 24 other guys over here counting on him?” Palmer speculated.

 

http://retrobaltimore.tumblr.com/post/142809936999/waiting-for-reggie

 

In addition, no one really knows what Baylor would have done or if the Orioles still would of made a similar trade with the Yankee if they never made the Jackson trade. In addition, Mike Torrez was good pitcher in that era.

  

 

o

 

First of all, almost every team to one extent or another did not anticipate what was going to happen in prior to the 1976 season. You are acting as though the Orioles should have known what almost all of the other franchises also did not know, and therefore should have acted differently than they did in terms of the Jackson-for Baylor trade. On one hand you are (correctly) stating that nobody knew what was going to happen, yet at the same time you are asserting that the Orioles did a bad job of anticipating  the ensuing events.

Secondly, there is almost no way that Jackson was going to sign a long-term contract with the Orioles. As the 1976 season was winding down in August and September, there was some talk about the possibility of Reggie staying with the Orioles if Peters had been willing to ante up $1 Million for 4 years, but I believe that that was just lip service from Jackson and the Orioles' front office. I remember when it was all happening at that time, and I remember that while I was appreciating Jackson's solid season that he was having for the Orioles, I also knew in my 10 year-old heart that he was as good as gone, and that my Reggie/Orioles bragging rights historically would only last for that one season ....... the reason being was that as the 1976 season was winding down, it was starting to become more evident as to what actually was going too happen throughout baseball, with commissioner Bowie Kuhn having voided several major trade attempts by Charlie O. Finley to unload some of his star players who were about to become free-agent eligible at season's end. There was even a cover of Sports Illustrated in late August of 1976 in which the title asserted that Jackson himself was "HITTING A MILLION", and was "Baseball's #1 Free Agent."

 

BOWIE STOPS CHARLIE'S CHECKS

https://www.si.com/vault/1976/06/28/618597/bowie-stops-charlies-checks

 

Finally, the 1976-77 offseason was the huge breakthrough season in which hordes of star players became free agents and left their previous teams and signed for money that was  unheard of at that time, including the Orioles' Bobby Grich. So while there is no way of knowing with absolute certainty what Baylor would have done had he not been traded, it would seem much more likely that he would have done what more than a dozen other free agents did who signed for (what was at that time) enormous increases in salary from what their previous pay had been.

 

The only thing that was ill-fated about the trade was the fact that Jackson held out for a month early in the season, in which the Orioles started out at 6-9 without him. Perhaps if he had not held out the Orioles would have won a few more games than they did and made the pennant race a little closer than it wound up being, but it hardly would have affected the outcome of the AL East that year ....... it was the Yankees' season from mid-June onwards, as they stomped their way to division title with little doubt in anyone's mind as to whether nor not they would win it, in a very similar manner to what the Orioles did 3 years later in 1979 from mid-June onward.

 

o