Who's most to blame for this mess?

[AnythingO's]

36 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

You must have forgotten that offseason. I recall a long period of inactivity and Duquette essentially being out of commission until early January. 

Correct, PA shut DD down while PA negotiated compensation

It takes two to tango and Duquette clearly wanted that position. 

Correct, the position paid several Million $ per year more and had complete responsibility over baseball operations

But letting him walk because of some asinine unwritten executive “rule” and not receiving just compensation from a division rival? Screw that nonsense.

Agree in principal but PA's excessive ask meant this wasn't going to happen and left DD in his diminished position, that was PA's choice.

 

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

I disagree with the term "dallying", Dan was approached by Mike Rogers formerly head of Rogers Communication. The Director of baseball operations position in Toronto still was filled for at least 1 more year but the incumbent had announced his retirement after that. Mike Rogers had been recently deposed as head of Rogers Communication and was trying to secure his own man in the Toronto position.  It was a promotion in terms of both money and responsibility. Up to that time no MLB organization had stood in the way of a baseball exec moving on for a promotion. Dan reported the offer to PA and the rest is history. I have problems with the way PA handled this by neutering Dan. I also have problems with collusion, since the recommendation to look at Dan came from an executive in the New York Yankees organization, to me that is an attempt to weaken a rival. None of this is "dallying" to me.

And you know this is exactly how it occurred how?  That there had been absolutely no communications ever, informal or otherwise between Dan and the leadership in Toronto...You  say  “Dan reported the offer to PA and the rest is history.”    Did Dan say...”Peter, these guys came at me with this, but I know that you gave me a chance to get back in the game as no other club would and I am very grateful for that.  Though this would be a step up, there is no way I am taking it without your blessing, because I am committed to getting the Orioles over the top to the World Series.”

Do you think that was what Dan said?  I don’t.  I think Dan was approached, or knew the scuttlebut of the situation and wanted it, and then told PA and then, funny, it seems it was leaked by somebody to the media and then became a huge public embarassment to Angelos.   

I have no idea at all if any of this was the way it played out.  Never talked to any of the parties.  But just as an outside, know nothing fan...something sure changed in the relationship between these two and it changed right then.  

Oh, and yes, I blame the Blue Jays much more..they should have been fined or penalized for tampering, imho..given how close we were to the World Series and arguably entering one of the most critical offseasons  in Oriole history and our dicision rival is attempting and succeeded in totally disrupting our organization. 

[tntoriole]

3 hours ago, eddie83 said:

Losing Davies and Miggy are not fireable offenses. We could sit here and review every franchise and see mistakes. The Astros had JD Martinez and Hader. Theo signed Carl Crawford in Boston. Every team makes mistakes. 

Dan is the most successful GM under Angelos.  

I disagree.  The team has been successful while Dan was here..but.I rank Pat Gillick and Andy Macphail as better Oriole GMs than Dan. 

[tntoriole]

3 hours ago, eddie83 said:

Toronto came to him. The Toronto job is unlike any other in the sport.

I don’t care if Angelos hated Dan for it. You don’t allow that to undermine your organization. Why should the team be punished over someone’s ego?  Either fire Dan or let him work.   

Angelos brought Dan out of exile and gave him a singular opportunity to rebuild his career which was pretty much over.  And then after a division title, at a critical offseason, Dan wants to repay that by jumping ship to our chief division rival.  I do care about that as a fan.  So yeah, maybe it got the old man more than a bit hot under the collar.  

Angelos is a lawyer.  Dan had a contract.  The team was at a critical point.  Losing your director of operations right then would have been a real blow to the Orioles organization.   Angelos, if nothing else, protects what he perceives as his business interests-see Nationals being allowed to be in Washington, etc..  Angelos wanted to be fairly compensated, Toronto refused.  Now, I would have fired Dan, if it were me, but PA decided to require Dan to do his job, fulfill his contract and just turned to others which reduced Dan’s influence and powers  it seems.   And you didn’t see Dan resign either, did you?  

[atomic]

14 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Angelos brought Dan out of exile and gave him a singular opportunity to rebuild his career which was pretty much over.  And then after a division title, at a critical offseason, Dan wants to repay that by jumping ship to our chief division rival.  I do care about that as a fan.  So yeah, maybe it got the old man more than a bit hot under the collar.  

Angelos is a lawyer.  Dan had a contract.  The team was at a critical point.  Losing your director of operations right then would have been a real blow to the Orioles organization.   Angelos, if nothing else, protects what he perceives as his business interests-see Nationals being allowed to be in Washington, etc..  Angelos wanted to be fairly compensated, Toronto refused.  Now, I would have fired Dan, if it were me, but PA decided to require Dan to do his job, fulfill his contract and just turned to others which reduced Dan’s influence and powers  it seems.   And you didn’t see Dan resign either, did you?  

I think the Blue Jays approached the White Sox GM as well and their owner instantly said no.   That is what Angelos should have done.   The compensation negotiations that lasted forever is what the club look like a laughingstock and the commissioner told the Orioles several times to make a decision.  Just like anything else the Orioles drag things out forever. 

[tntoriole]

Just now, atomic said:

I think the Blue Jays approached the White Sox GM as well and their owner instantly said no.   That is what Angelos should have done.   The compensation negotiations that lasted forever is what the club look like a laughingstock and the commissioner told the Orioles several times to make a decision.  Just like anything else the Orioles drag things out forever. 

Yes, well the Toronto organization DID not approach Angelos first, they approached Dan and then it got leaked out by somebody not named Angelos...I, for one, commend the old man for telling the Blow Jays to go pound sand.   If Duquette had just been allowed to walk, and the Orioles got nothing and then, on the fly, after winning the division and at the peak of their window, had to replace their entire leadership in the offseason and then had finished badly and the Blow Jays had done well...you would have been just really happy about that?  Not me. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Yes, well the Toronto organization DID not approach Angelos first, they approached Dan and then it got leaked out by somebody not named Angelos...I, for one, commend the old man for telling the Blow Jays to go pound sand.   If Duquette had just been allowed to walk, and the Orioles got nothing and then, on the fly, after winning the division and at the peak of their window, had to replace their entire leadership in the offseason and then had finished badly and the Blow Jays had done well...you would have been just really happy about that?  Not me. 

He didn't tell them to pound sand, he did his thing as a lawyer and tried to negotiate terms.

 

[tntoriole]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

He didn't tell them to pound sand, he did his thing as a lawyer and tried to negotiate terms.

 

I agree...although Toronto probably realized the old man was not too happy about them.   Sort of like MLB feels at times.  Or tobacco companies...lol. 

 

[atomic]

6 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Yes, well the Toronto organization DID not approach Angelos first, they approached Dan and then it got leaked out by somebody not named Angelos...I, for one, commend the old man for telling the Blow Jays to go pound sand.   If Duquette had just been allowed to walk, and the Orioles got nothing and then, on the fly, after winning the division and at the peak of their window, had to replace their entire leadership in the offseason and then had finished badly and the Blow Jays had done well...you would have been just really happy about that?  Not me. 

If he told them to pound sand I would have no issue with what he did.   But instead he drug out things for a very long time and the commissioner had to get involved.  And the Team let the offseason go by without doing anything.

[tntoriole]

Just now, atomic said:

If he told them to pound sand I would have no issue with what he did.   But instead he drug out things for a very long time and the commissioner had to get involved.  And the Team let the offseason go by without doing anything.

Lawyers pound sand just like that.  He asked for their top prospects which is pretty much lawyer speak for pounding sand...It is what comes with having a litigator as owner.  Everything is a negotiation.  But Toronto and then Dan started this whole farce...so the fact that the offseason went  by is completely on them, imho.   I blame Toronto and Dan for this whole situation and the ramifications of it...period.  You can blame it on Angelos all you want, but this one situation is not on the old man, imho.  

[atomic]

32 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Lawyers pound sand just like that.  He asked for their top prospects which is pretty much lawyer speak for pounding sand...It is what comes with having a litigator as owner.  Everything is a negotiation.  But Toronto and then Dan started this whole farce...so the fact that the offseason went  by is completely on them, imho.   I blame Toronto and Dan for this whole situation and the ramifications of it...period.  You can blame it on Angelos all you want, but this one situation is not on the old man, imho.  

I would think everyone else in the majors would disagree.  It is a case of biting off your nose to spite your face. 

[AnythingO's]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

And you know this is exactly how it occurred how?  That there had been absolutely no communications ever, informal or otherwise between Dan and the leadership in Toronto...You  say  “Dan reported the offer to PA and the rest is history.”  

I know it was reported in the press that: Mike Rogers had been voted out as head of Rogers Communication; that the current head of Toronto baseball operations had announced his retirement after the next season; that Mike Rogers asked his friend in NYY upper management who might be a good replacement and they said DD; that Mike Rogers was trying to build support to retake head of Rogers Communication; and that DD reported that he relayed the offer to Orioles management. I don't know who spoke to DD from Rogers or how DD conveyed that to Oriole management.

 

 

[tntoriole]

6 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

 

Apparently it didn’t go over too well with Mr. Angelos.  And Dan was also quoted that January as saying the pursuit of the Tornoto job “had no effect on improving the Orioles for 2015.”  Yeah, sure it didn’t.   

[tntoriole]

The three prospects that the old man wanted for Duquette? 

Jeff Hoffman.. pitcher..ninth overall pick in 2014...

Max Pentecost, catcher...11th overall pick in 2014 draft

Mitch Nay,  third base..58 pick in  2012 draft

Funny, but these have not done much of anything...Hoffman was traded to Rockies in Tulowitzki deal and is in AAA for Rockies...Mike Wright like numbers in call ups to Rockies in last two years

Pentecost and Nay (drafted by Red ps in minor league part of Rule5 last December)  have both had health issues and neither have broken out of the minors. 

Same old Angelos...wanted three top rated picks, but got them all wrong, of course.    And Toronto could have just sent them as it turns out and not missed them one bit. 

 

[Tbone83]

3 hours ago, tntoriole said:

I disagree.  The team has been successful while Dan was here..but.I rank Pat Gillick and Andy Macphail as better Oriole GMs than Dan. 

Uh yeah MacPhail is THE guy I will associate with the 2012-2014 years. DD did some nice work to push those teams over the top and into the playoffs, but AM built it. Post 2014 DD has been largely an epic failure. 

AM>DD, and it's not particularly close.