Is Buck a tough manager to pitch for?

[Frobby]

This is something I’ve been wondering about even before this season.    We’ve had four pitching coaches chosen by Buck, and our pitchers have frequently struggled, with a few exceptions.    Is Buck the issue?    Is it TTTP, or some other approach Buck demands that makes it hard for pitchers to succeed here?    Or is it just OPACY and the other AL East ballparks and competition?   Take out 2014 and the (starting) pitching’s been pretty miserable.

[Finisher]

TTTP is screwing up some of our pitchers, I have no doubt of that. And/or other things we're imposing on our pitchers. There's just no way so many pitchers come here and immediately lose it whereas the total opposite happens when pitchers leave. I mean someone please explain Jeremy Hellickson to me: went from not looking like a major leaguer with us to 2.30 ERA the very next season.

[AnythingO's]

Seems like more than 4, but I can't remember who he inherited Kranitz, Conner , Adair then Mazonne, Wallace, McDowell. I have nothing to back it up but IMO Buck has a "philosophy" about pitching, first pitch strikes low and away, reliance on FB. Guys who don't have good enough stuff to do that need to pitch backwards. They don't become Buck guys unless they have success. I believe his pitching coaches reflect that philosophy. Guys that move on and are allowed to pitch to their strengths have more success elsewhere. OPACY plays a part in that both physically and mentally IMHO.

[Tx Oriole]

30 minutes ago, Finisher said:

TTTP is screwing up some of our pitchers, I have no doubt of that. And/or other things we're imposing on our pitchers. There's just no way so many pitchers come here and immediately lose it whereas the total opposite happens when pitchers leave. I mean someone please explain Jeremy Hellickson to me: went from not looking like a major leaguer with us to 2.30 ERA the very next season.

 

7 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Seems like more than 4, but I can't remember who he inherited Kranitz, Conner , Adair then Mazonne, Wallace, McDowell. I have nothing to back it up but IMO Buck has a "philosophy" about pitching, first pitch strikes low and away, reliance on FB. Guys who don't have good enough stuff to do that need to pitch backwards. They don't become Buck guys unless they have success. I believe his pitching coaches reflect that philosophy. Guys that move on and are allowed to pitch to their strengths have more success elsewhere. OPACY plays a part in that both physically and mentally IMHO.

I don't know why he/they can't let a pitcher pitch to their strengths. 

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Seems like more than 4, but I can't remember who he inherited Kranitz, Conner , Adair then Mazonne, Wallace, McDowell. 

Buck inherited Kranitz, and the pitching was terrific during the two months Kranitz stayed with Buck.   (By the way, the pitching stunk that year until Buck arrived, so that undercuts my “Buck is tough to pitch for” theory.)    Replacing Kranitz was a mistake IMO.

Mazzone pre-dated Buck by many years.     He left after 2007.

[AnythingO's]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Replacing Kranitz was a mistake IMO.

Mazzone pre-dated Buck by many years.     He left after 2007.

Agree on Kranitz; LOL re: Mazzone that's what I get for relying on memory.

[TINSTAAPP]

45 minutes ago, Frobby said:

This is something I’ve been wondering about even before this season.    We’ve had four pitching coaches chosen by Buck, and our pitchers have frequently struggled, with a few exceptions.    Is Buck the issue?    Is it TTTP, or some other approach Buck demands that makes it hard for pitchers to succeed here?    Or is it just OPACY and the other AL East ballparks and competition?   Take out 2014 and the (starting) pitching’s been pretty miserable.

The pitching coaches themselves seem to be a bigger issue than Buck himself although I guess the two go hand in hand. The pitching was fine when Wallace was here but it has been a mess under McDowell, Adair, and Connor.

[e16bball]

10 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Guys that move on and are allowed to pitch to their strengths have more success elsewhere.

Who? Who are all these guys who pitched for Buck and then moved on and had so much more success after they left?

Jake Arrieta. Alfredo Simon had one good season as a starter elsewhere. Who else got more than a (small) cup of coffee with the Orioles and then was able to really blossom after getting out from under the strictures of the Showalter philosophy? We've had some guys from lower in the organization go elsewhere and see success, but none of them ever pitched more than a couple innings for Buck, if any. Most of the guys who have pitched here and left have either been worse or basically the same guy in their new home(s).

[sportsfan8703]

Well considering Buck calls the games from the dugout, I’d say yes. 

[Santandah]

I think it's tough to pitch for the Orioles as constituted the last couple of years. Subpar defense in the outfield and now in the infield and a lack of hitting makes the job pretty tough, practically and psychologically.

[PaulFolk]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Well considering Buck calls the games from the dugout, I’d say yes. 

Not sure if serious...

[Rene88]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

Buck inherited Kranitz, and the pitching was terrific during the two months Kranitz stayed with Buck.   (By the way, the pitching stunk that year until Buck arrived, so that undercuts my “Buck is tough to pitch for” theory.)    Replacing Kranitz was a mistake IMO.

Mazzone pre-dated Buck by many years.     He left after 2007.

Because Kranitz was/is a terrific pitching coach. I can’t tell you how many times I bitched about him letting Kranitz go. But Buck has his guys...dumb ass irresponsible  move.

[wildcard]

6 hours ago, TINSTAAPP said:

The pitching coaches themselves seem to be a bigger issue than Buck himself although I guess the two go hand in hand. The pitching was fine when Wallace was here but it has been a mess under McDowell, Adair, and Connor.

I agree that Wallace is the best pitching coach Buck as had.

[wildcard]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

This is something I’ve been wondering about even before this season.    We’ve had four pitching coaches chosen by Buck, and our pitchers have frequently struggled, with a few exceptions.    Is Buck the issue?    Is it TTTP, or some other approach Buck demands that makes it hard for pitchers to succeed here?    Or is it just OPACY and the other AL East ballparks and competition?   Take out 2014 and the (starting) pitching’s been pretty miserable.

Buck does really well with the pen except for the Britton playoff incident.

Buck insists that his starters go at least 6 innings.  And he keeps starters in too long which allows too many runs trying to achieve that goal.  Hellickson was terrible here because he could not go deep in games but Buck pushed him to do it.  In Washington they let him goes a far as he can and then replace him before he gives up a bunch on runs.  It works for him and the team.  

The pitching staff construction has be different to work when starters are not pushed to go 6.  There needs to be at least 2 inning eaters in the pen to take up the slack.  The O's have not had that many long men that put up zeros.  Buck is trying to work Castro and Wright into those spot but it has not worked consistently yet.   

Cashner was successful in Texas because they didn't push him to go deep in games.  That is not happening under Buck.  Pitchers like Bundy, Gausman and Cobb can go deep in games pretty consistently.   But even they have their days went nothing is working and they need to come out early.

[Larry18]

13 hours ago, Finisher said:

TTTP is screwing up some of our pitchers, I have no doubt of that. And/or other things we're imposing on our pitchers. There's just no way so many pitchers come here and immediately lose it whereas the total opposite happens when pitchers leave. I mean someone please explain Jeremy Hellickson to me: went from not looking like a major leaguer with us to 2.30 ERA the very next season.

I don't think Hellickson is a good example. He wasn't here long enough first of all but just as important, he was arguably worse with Phillies than the Orioles. Look at his OPS by month with the Phillies (.515, .971, .855, .889,) and the Orioles (.808, .797). He looks to have improved that stat with the O's. Maybe OPS isn't your bag, let's look at wOBA by month (.224, .401, .356, .364, .336, .339) again he appears to have improved in Baltimore.  How about soft contact rates? Not a stat I would choose for a pitcher that doesn't have swing and miss stuff. They are expressed as % (19.2, 23.2, .16.0, 10.6, 23.9, 23.2) which looks to favor his time here as well. In short, Hellickson was broken when he arrived and if nothing else the O's stabilized his subpar performance and nudged him forward. His isn't on the coaching staff or Buck but on DD.